So there seem to be about 3000 kiters in this area now.....
 

That time of the year when we should probably discuss how we can better our launch/landing areas with the obvious increase of local riders.

Few things I noticed on Saturday at the Skyway.. most everyone was far up at the point of the beach.. there was a lot of room down by the big Mangrove bush.. i had my kites there and there was maybe one other kiter utilizing that area.. not sure why.. lots more room for everyone if we try to spread things out.

Only a few people were winding up their lines after setting their kites down for a break.. need to do this for everyones saftey..

There was a rider not using a leash and he lost his kite twice. There were 2 small children and a number of people watching us kite on the beach right where his kite/line/bar went flying thru both times. I cannot begin to express how pissed this made me and how horrible things could have ended. I dont know the rider but I think many people do. I saw him back out on the water again w/o a leash riding a bow kite with a pulley bar (no depower line.. just a trim strap). If anyone knows him, please talk to him about this.

Please try to park as far from the beach area as possible. ..

Please give complete right of way to those launching and landing...

Blah blah blah...

Yeah, and I'll add that newer kiters might want to stay in areas that are a bit more instruction friendly if possible such as East Beach. I am guilty of this as well as Chris and I were teaching Amber at the Skyway. The only reason we were teaching her there over EB was because it was an EXTREME low tide and we walked way out to the sandbar far away from other kiters...Amber got up for about 5 seconds thanks to Chris!!! She's well on her way!

On Sunday, a rider got caught downwind at the Skyway after helping a non-local, retrieving her board. A REAL complaint I have with the attitude that seems to have developed is that I saw him in trouble near the rocky area and asked 3-4 people who were on the beach (I had a kite up and didn't dare ride down there for fear that I would get stuck too) to help him. They all said "He'll be fine" or "He's gonna touch bottom soon, he'll be okay". All it would have taken is about 5 minutes of effort to hop in a car, drive down to where he was stuck and catch his kite for him. Instead, his BRAND NEW kite has about a 3 foot gash in both the leading edge and the bladder. Props to Jeff for trying to ride downwind and help him!!! The rider in question could have been caught by a gust much like Tom was at EB that day and taken into the fence or worse, across to the highway ramp and badly injured if not killed. NOT COOL, if you see someone in trouble then take a minute to imagine that it is you out there flailing around. Would YOU want assistance? Then get up off your lazy a$$ and go help a fellow kiter in need of help!!!!!

Also, there were two other instances Sunday when one kiter launched his kite without being hooked in or having his leash attached. You don't have to hook in while launching, sometimes it is the safer way to launch but the VERY FIRST THING THAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING when you pick that bar up is to attach your leash!!! This newer kiter proceeded to throw his bar and voila! RUNAWAY KITE! Luckily the bar got caught on a car and Randy grabbed the bar and Roy got to the kite real quickly and grabbed it.

Not 15 minutes later, a group of kids from Tallahassee decided that they would launch a 19 METER KITE and all the while the same girl that Roy rescued is shouting to the pilot how to launch!!! Well, he got the kite in the air after launching the kite in the wrong position, the kite started to climb on him, got into the power zone and looped! Luckily, the bar was thrown and the kite crashed in the dirt road right next to some spectators.

What I am trying to say in a nutshell...take instruction with CERTIFIED INSTRUCTORS, learn at EB unless extenuating circumstances arise and your instructor takes you elsewhere, hook your leash to the bar before you do ANYTHING else and when a rider is in trouble, HELP THEM IF AT ALL POSSIBLE!!!

Here's my take on the Skyway--it is an advanced kiting spot and should be avoided by all beginners and many intermediate riders if they are not riding there with an instructor. Why? Here's a few reasons:

The launch is tight. The entire time you are kiting, you are upwind of an interstate highway. There is sharp stuff out there that can gash you. There are rocks out there. The wind is unstable in certain spots, particularly at the launch. The water is deep to both the left and right of the main riding area and if you put your kite down in there and can not relaunch, you are probably going to get dragged to a rocky shore close to the highway. It is necessary to stay upwind when riding at the Skyway to stay out of trouble, no matter the wind direction. It interferes with the ability of even advanced riders at the Skyway to ride safely when a beginner is foundering 20 feet upwind of the beach with the kite at 12:00 o'clock. There are spectators who pull off I-275 to watch what is going on. It is crowded. There are many new riders who ride there who are a hazard to other riders on the water. If you lose your kite, it is probably going to be destroyed.

Perhaps some will counter by saying that on a NE, E, or SE wind, the Skyway is the closest place to them to ride. I think that is irrelevant to whether a rider should even be on the water there. That's like a new surfer saying that the closest break to him is Pipeline. The spot is still too heavy. When I was still learning to be independent as a rider, I avoided the Skyway for almost an entire year (after a kitemare there that almost involved going under the bridge) before deciding I was up to it. Part of being a kiteboarder is learning to identify your own limitations and then not push too far beyond them to avoid hurting yourself or someone else.

As far as helping others out, I see that going on all the time. I have given help and received help. Notwithstanding that, there is no duty on me to serve as a lifeguard and spend my session watching over other riders. Part of being a kiteboarder is knowing that when you go out, you will make certain that you come back in under your own power, not with the crew or the Coast Guard or a bystanding jet-skier or someone else performing a rescue. If you have doubt, don't go out. If you want someone to have your back, make a deal with a friend with more riding skill or hire an instructor for the session.

If you are unmoved by these warnings and must go out at the Skyway without a full bag of skillz, do this: launch, get in the water without delay, then (keeping the kite about 25 feet off of the water at the edge of the window), walk all the way out to the sandbar and start riding there. That way, you will have some downwind room to give and might actually be able to progress at the Skyway. It will take you 5 to 10 minutes to walk out there, so rig smaller, bring a bigger board, and maybe you won't get worked.

i agree 100% eric. same deal here.. my instructor told me not to kite at skyway until i was able to ride upwind with ease.

i guess the bigger issue would be discussing how to approach those on the beach that obviously should not be there or are practicing unsafe habits.

i have a hard time confronting those that i dont know. some are much better at "helping a person understand" while i might come off with a "DUDE!! PUT ON A FU*KING LEASH"..

I need to work on my people skills.

serious tho..
if we all do our best to smile and give pointers to people in need (even if that pointer is to have them put down their kite), it will help.

on a positive note, it did seem like most riders stayed away from shore which i was happy about.... and not to many people stood on the beach with there kite in the air just chatting away, thats a definate plus, either ride or put the kite down....

I still think that if someone is in trouble, help them. I don't care if it is a newbie or if it is Dmitri, spots WILL get banned and people WILL get hurt if the 'I'm not gonna babysit him' attitude continues...I agree with E-Bone in that a LOT of these guys simply shouldn't be riding the SW but simple fact is that MOST just won't listen and safety is a REAL issue here. Having the attitude of 'let their kite runaway into the mangroves' is not only the absolute WRONG approach in my opinion but the first time a kite hits an updraft and ends up on another car windshield on the highway and causes a fatality and gets us banned from the SW or someone actually gets hurt that YOU could have prevented by proactively assisting them when in trouble even if you cuss them out afterward, you WILL BE SORRY WITH THAT OUTCOME AND BLAME YOURSELF FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE...

You are damn right about helping people by the rocks. I have ALWAYS made it a point to go down there and retrieve a kite or check on them.

ANY time someone has a kite in the water you should ride by and check on them. They could be unconcious, could be bleeding to death, or could just need someone to recover their board.

Maybe they will brush you off but maybe you will save their life.

Next, in my opinion (this is extreme I know), I don't believe beginners should ride at backside skyway. I think beginners who are up and riding should *avoid* the skyway and East Beach if there is a crowd. Wait until the crowd disperses a bit and then go out.

As for East Beach, it is just as dangerous if not MORE dangerous than the skyway. There are signs, trees, cars, people, slippery mud and grass, etc out there and even experienced riders have gotten hurt and almost killed out there. Bayflite Bryan has that nickname because of East Beach, and we had an experienced rider get seriously injured (surgery) a few months back because of the slippery mud at East Beach. I had a close call there when I made a newbie mistake and I am extremely fortunate to be alive and walking. I was dragged between the signs, trees, moving cars, and across the road on my stomach on a 18M kite in 30mph winds. At a big sand beach this would have been much less of a near death experience but at East Beach or the skyway it could easily have been fatal.

If it's light and empty, sure, but if there are 5+ riders out there, forget it.

I know, you're saying "Well, WHERE can I ride?"

Easy. Wait until the wind clocks west towards the end of the cold front. Then go to Big Beach Ft. Desoto (the standard place for beginners to ride) . There is plenty of room for walking up wind with kite, and there are no swimmers, and nothing dangerous to get dragged into. There is also 150 yards of grass land to catch your kite when you forget to connect your leash.

Once you fully understand the risks of riding at the crowded spots, then work your way in from the outside. I still try to avoid riding or jumping in the "jumping zone" at East Beach. This is the center of the beach where you'll find Jayson, Billy, Alex and some of the other guys trying unhooked stuff. Respect these guys and limit the amount of time you spend in that area. The sandbar is a nice place for beginners to eat shit. :)

Ok end rant... have fun, be safe.

I don't want to see bad things happen, but there is a certain amount of risk that attaches to trying to help another rider on the water, especially with runaway kites. I have tried to catch runaway kites before and, the one time I did catch the kite, I almost lost a thumb. The second time, I almost got caught in the lines again.

I am not one to stand idly by when the shit is hitting the fan. I have been helping out other riders for years now. Still, there needs to be an understanding here--and this is particularly important with new kiters--that there is no entitlement to rescue absent a special relationship.

If it is gnarly out and your kiting buddy with years of experience tells you, "no worries, bro', I got your back," you should expect that buddy to retrieve your board or approach you to try to help if you are getting hammered on the water. If you are taking a lesson and you are getting worked, you have a right to expect the instuctor to try to bail your ass out.

Otherwise, you don't have a claim on the crew out there to run after you if you are eating crap or to retrieve your board. There seems to be a recurring theme with new and intermediate kiters around here, blaming everything (the wind, the current, the kite, other riders, whatever), when things go wrong. That's bullshit. Each kiter is responsible for regulating his or her own kite. That's really what it comes down to. Keep your kite under control at all times. If you can't do that because of the difficulty of the spot or weather conditions, then don't launch the kite in the first place. Find an easier spot. Spend some more time with a trainer kite, get a kite with a better safety system, get more kites so you can rig appropriately for the wind, get some better board skillz at the cable park so you can focus more on the kite, or spend more time with an instructor.

So what about the board rescues that do go on? I got a few the other day, although it was a matter of convenience and did not involve potentially losing the board. My bros hooked me up. I'll get them a few beers. But I was never under the false impression than anyone had an obligation to grab my board and bitch it over to me. And had everyone said, screw you, get your own board, I would have.

I will never blame myself for the actions of others in the kite scene. As it stands, no one died and made me god. I make decisions for myself and no other kiter around here.

As a member of the "new old school" group of kiters here, I have spent plenty of effort talking to others, in person and on these forums, regarding how to do this sport without getting hammered needlessly. Compared to just a few years ago, there are so many more resources regarding safety and instruction available to newcomers to the sport today. It is up to them to learn how to be safe out there. Such a willingness to be responsible for themselves is what will make this scene better for everyone, which is why opposition to babysitting helps make our scene better, not worse.

Tom just noted a lot of local info that will help the beginner focus in on where and when the conditions will be best for him or her.

Also, in reality, as Tom noted, other riders will tend to check you out if you are down, out of courtesy. I did the run to the rocks on Saturday. I launched and landed plenty of kites on Sunday. I even went after someone's kite last season that just about made its way under the Skyway itself, which was a gnarly situation that had me crawling over submerged rocks and swimming without a PFD or harness in some stupid current. Understand that for what it is, however. It is courtesy. It is not duty. There is an important difference between the two concepts.

In this world, there is only one person who gives a shit about you in the whole scheme of things, and that person is you! Make sure you do what is necessary to keep yourself out of trouble. If you don't care enough to do so, why do you think that anyone else will?

Ahhh the Skyway. I remember when Zack and I were the only ones there on weekdays and maybe 6 guys would show on weekends (and they were all from Sarasota) and "too lazy" to drive all the way out to EB.

Good luck out there guys, keep it safe. Lots of stuff to figure out it sounds like.

Agreed E-Bone, good points. My problem here is that NONE of those common courtesies were done for this kiter who got in trouble because he was retrieving a board for someone else. Jeff, who is a newer kiter was the only one who went out to help. Almost ALL of the kiters on the beach were people I did not know and frankly it pisses me off to see the newer guys NOT help. They will SURELY be in the same situation someday.

As for what E-Bone said, I agree and I personally rode upwind of EVERYONE on Sunday afternoon. Even Randy's lesson. Not too hard with a 20.5 Machine and a UG MC 158... But if someone gets hurt at the Skyway, I GUARANTEE it will get banned...THAT is why we have to always TRY to help, even if we aren't "obligated" by friendship to do so. I would help any of you and I would hope that would be reciprocated if I ever get into serious trouble.

?
 

Well hey nobody died and everyone had a good time. I dont expect anyone to help me. If someone does, great if not then something bad happens then it's totatly my fault and I will never blame anyone for not helping me. On the flip side if I see anyone in trouble I will be there in a heartbeat for you. Especially my bros like Toby, Alex, Adam, Paul, Rusky, E-bone, Jeff, Crazy Jay, John, and I pretty sure missed someone...... Even though they are all wayyyyy better than me, but I always got your back! I would like to thank all of you because you guys have helped my learning curve, and made me a better kitter! Heck I was landing my first big jumps this weekend!!!!!

On a more positive note, I bought a really fancy Digital SLR camera that I have taken some really great shots with. If you guys would like some pics just let me know. I am at SW and EB riding all the time. All it cost you is a blank CD, or if you have access to the internet I can upload them to my website for you so you can download them then its FREE....... Well maybe if you brought a cooler you can give me a beer from it. LOL

Alright peace and be safe out there!!!

I'll go after anything on foot... but if my kites up, I'll maybe retrieve your board.

I'm not getting myself messed up for some gear that can be replaced.

I still don't ride at the skyway but that's because I prefer East Beach. It's easier for me to get to and there's no dollar toll.

i 'member 1 time way back when i saw dude lookin' like he needed help so i go down wind 2 see what i could do...

i'm real close to him tryin2c what's up when my dumb ass flew my kite right into his lines and tangled 'em all2 hell...had2 throw our bars...a real cluster fork!

4 sure i hurt more than helped that time.

but still...i'd do it again (try2help) in a heartbeat, only now a days i'd prolly look less stupid.

:roll:

I remember what drew me to this sport and this group of people... how much everyone was willing to help each other out. Right now, I would NEVER go out without my instructor, (or friend/boyfriend,etc) who is consciously looking after me. That is just me and my comfort zone right now. I know my limits and will make sure that if I'm working on something I'm not very familiar with, I have someone there to keep an eye on me. I have seen some of you guys racing down the beach at the first sign of trouble. It is a very cool thing to watch. Not cool that someone's in trouble of course, but the way you guys have looked after each other.

The Camaraderie of this sport is unique in its tight nit community, which drew so many of us to want to be a part of the kiting addiction. I was skeptical at first because I sat on the beach for a long time before I decided that this sport ws for me. I have seen people get hurt and have helped rescue people's kites out of trees. I decided to take lessons from certified instructors (not just my buddy or boyfriend) and learn the right way, with safety skills taught first.

Just remember that everyone was once a newbie and and its easy to forget that time when some guy was riding by and throwing out some helpful instructions for you. It really comes down to the whole Karma thing for me. If I continue to recognize signs of trouble, and can help out without putting myself in more danger, I'm on it. What comes around goes around. I know that when that person sees me out there struggling that they might remember the time I helped them climb a tree to get their kite out and will be willing to exchange the favor.

Yes, the skyway is scary. I will not ride on the backside. However, after taking a hike to the sandbar at the front side and having an instructor with me, I see no reason why me, as a newbie shouldn't be allowed to ride there. As soon as I started to find myself downwind, I'd turn around and hike back to the sandbar to start again.

Everyone right now seems quite bitter because there are so many new people and the launches are crowded,etc. What we have to remember is that this sport is growing exponentially and we are all a part of that. There are annoying things like crowded launches and people who haven't taken a lesson go out and put the rest of us in danger. The more of us there are, the cheaper the gear becomes, the better the safety systems are made and the more opportunity we have to bring exposure and to be a part of the grassroots community of this awesome sport.


The fact that we have 82 people registered for OUR race is amazing. Now listen up... when I bring tv stations and newspaper reporters and photographers to cover the race... I expect everyone to look out for themselves and be safe. The last thing this sport needs is an accident in front of all the newspapers and TV reporters. Look out for each other and only ride as far as you'd be able to self-rescue your way back to the beach.

Have fun, don't hate and remember what goes around comes around...
:wink:

Sweet post, Amber.

My thought here
http://www.fksa.org/viewtopic.php?t=2818

Good post, but there is NO substitution for proper instruction man. Had you worked on your body dragging upwind, board dragging, self launch and land and self rescue before you tried to ride the board? I highly doubt you did all of these and these are just a few of the most important things you need to know before you hit the water to ride. Even if you are riding now, get some professional certified instruction man.

If you want to get to the next level and gain respect of your peers, show us you mean business and INVEST in the sport by paying to take some lessons. You obviously have the money/means to do so as you must have gear to be riding. Lessons should come first, gear second. But I will always support our newer riders as long as they follow the proper channels and learn to ride safely so my life and my friends life as well as our great local launches are not put in danger...

Hope to ride with you out there soon!

Toby

I have spent more time boddy dragging and kite flying then I have on the board, I self launch and land 75% of the time. So, I have put in my time there, I am hopping to hit desoto one weekend when the winds are favorable. I will agree that lesson are the best way and are the only way for some people, I also realize that I would have progressed faster with lessons, however that is not the path I took, I was just saying that all noobs are not bad and I have seen many who have had lessons mess up on the concepts I discussed in my post, I just hope noobs with or without lessons will read that post and think twice about being an idiot.

Just a note - I support the taking of lessons, it is by far the best way and I would not recommend taking my path unless you have a close friend who is willing to sacrifice ride time to spend ample time showing you the ropes and getting you started. Also only if they are a truly experienced kiter or instructer. Not a 1 hour lecture giving you a kite.

Go ahead then, be stubborn like that and don't consult an instructor. But also don't be surprised when you aren't given the 'respect' that you think you deserve from the rest of the community. There is NO excuse for not taking at least one lesson from an instructor, cowboy!!!

(I personally spent about $600 on lessons, you can afford one)

Don't hold back Toby, tell us how you really feel.

I'll go against the grain here. While I definitely recommend instruction to all beginners, I would say if you're riding already and doing fine, then you probably don't need an instructor at this point. Just continue to be responsible and respectful. Also don't be afraid to ask the more experienced guys questions about technique, ediquette and safety, as long as you're not pestering them.

No offense to the "certified" instructors out there, but there are plenty of more than capable instructors and friends who teach friends. You shouldn't dismiss them because they don't have an acronym on their card, some of them have been kiting longer than the certifying organizations have existed. Respect is earned on and around the water. It doesn't come from a certificate.

I agree with you to an extent. Did he learn from you H? If so, maybe this is a rare exception but learning from a regular schmoe just isn't cool...not to mention dangerous.

I feel that having a certified instructor train and certify someone leaves a level of 'responsibility' for that new kiters actions on the instructor. If I go and teach Amber, for instance and she kills someone, the liability stops with that rider. The reason people need to be certified to teach in most cases is liability which ensures a good and thorough lesson because these instructors are watching their own backs as well as their students'...

It just isn't safe to say it's okay for a kiter who is 'experienced' after 'riding for over a year' has the right to put someone on the water. The only non-certified guys that should be teaching are guys who have been around for at least 3-4 years IMO, THAT is how I REALLY feel good buddy!!!! :P :D :wink:

H wrote:
That's right on, H, and that's the good news for developing kiters. No one dislikes a noob because he or she is a noob. If you take it easy and don't do reckless things you will make friends fast, and those friends will hook you up.

When I showed up here in 2003, I had been kiting since 2001 but I was still green because I had been stuck in grad school in Gainesville for three years without a ton of water time. The Sarasota and Tampa crews took me in and a lot of local riders stepped up and took over my kite education.

Between everyone here and the St. Augustine crew, I have had a lot of kiters help my development over the years, and it is still going on with some of the local rippers teaching me some stupid tricks I shouldn't even try with these old bones.

Part of getting that helping hand, however, is not biting the hand that feeds you. Treat your local scene right and listen to the more experienced riders.

Besides, it is better to pay for wisdom with someone else's flesh.

lessons from instructors are great if you are a good student.. some are not.. some can get up and ride the next day.. some take a month or so of constant salt-water-eating-throw-thru-the-muck (like me).

Dan and I took our lessons together.. we learned to kite together .. one on land ..one trying to get up and ride.. sh*t hit the fan.. the other would be there to help out or assist.

The buddy system is the BEST way to learn. We did not learn quickly and we did some stupid ass stuff more than a couple times.. but we never put others in harms way and always stayed clear..

BUT...

I guess i am still stuck at the "what do you do when you see someone practicing unsafe kiting?".

I am going to do my best to approach the rider(s), introduce myself and get a feel for their experience and see if i can help them out. I know that when i was green, i knew the basics but a few pointers could have gone a long ways. if they are lesson-less and cop attitude I am not going to push anything but i might wrangle in some locals to help me 'persuade' the rider(s) to consider what they are trying to do.

I've seen other locals do this with success. its all about the right attitude..

I'm thinking of making up some quick flyers (similar to what ive seen from Hatteras) with a map of the area showing launch spots rated from beginner to expert and wind conditions. giving these out to newbies.. putting the names and numbers of local instructors on it might help too..
riders that have been here for a while need to step up help the new riders if for no other reason but to ensure that you'll have a place to ride next season.

Yeah E-Bone, I'll keep trying to help you in your development with teaching you as best I can... :P :lol:

Yes, Toby, you did offer instruction to me but I decided I wasn't interested in learing tricks such as the (insert bizarre, aberrant sex-themed trick names here).

:shock:

Bryan-
I think your last post was right on the money. Most of us "don't bite the hand that feeds us" and that includes friends and instructors. I think that the number one concern for everyone should be safety. If any of us (new or old) sees someone attempting to or start to do something that looks dangerous/stupid, etc it is necessary to step up and say something.

I know its easy to get frustrated with these people and to tell them to find somewhere else to ride. However, if they're attempting to launch a kite straight downwind, etc it may only take one minute of someone's time and the guy can learn the correct way and will probably never do it again. I think a lot of times people are NOT trying to be stupid and dangerous... they just don't know, or are confused. If they get cocky with you and tell you off, all 5'3 of me has got your back. (I bet I could convince my 6'6 boyfriend to step in too).

Seriously though, try to keep your cool, definitely say something, and take it from there. I think the flyers are a great idea. You know those plastic things people put in their front yards to sell their house? The things that say "take one" or whatever? We could stick one of those at EB, maybe Skyway, etc with an info flyer with the info you mentioned.

When an experienced rider tells a newbie to ride somewhere else (around here anyway), its usually because they are looking out for the newbie, not because they are frustrated with them.

It's okay Tom, I am helping in the teaching of Amber, so with my expertise in the sport :roll: , noone has anything to worry about where SHE rides!!! :shock: :lol:

No reason for newbies to get defensive... I'm one too. I've only been riding for about a year and a half now. Yeah I can jump and do a few easy tricks, but in my book, less than 2 years means I'm still a beginner... so if I show up at a new spot and someone tells me it's a bad idea for me to ride there, you can bet your rear end I'll listen! A good example of this is St. Augustine. I haven't ridden there yet, but if I go out there and try to ride somewhere thats over my head (whether it be obstacles, current, whatever)... I expect someone to recommend a better spot and yeah I'll listen to them, no problem at all. I'd rather avoid a problem than become one.

When I started riding my instructor told me clearly where to ride and where NOT to ride. East beach and the skyway were the places to avoid. I did not ride there until I was "given the nod" by an experienced rider.

I hope it was obvious that I was being sarcastic in that last post... :oops:

Is there anything else but sarcasm on a forum?

Bumping up some old threads.There's some real good info here from experienced kiters-
This post pertains to the EAST side of the Skyway Bridge, and is from 2006- do you think our scene has grown since then?

Conclusion: Not a good place for lessons or beginners who can't consistently ride upwind.