You are right, but most newbs will not know if it's enforceable or not.

And, as long as a few people point it out and enforce it themselves, it is in effect enforced. Sure they could give you the finger and you couldn't do anything about it... but then again you could kick their ass for it too. But I'll leave that decision up to the enforcer and the situation.

Fact is many signs are not enforceable... like "Do not walk on grass" but 90% of the people with any moral fabric at all still obey them because their parents raised them correctly... and of course they do not like someone giving them a hard time when they know they are in the wrong.

There is no reason we can't have a sign and still do something else such as rubber bracelets.

At this point ANYTHING would be better than nothing at all. I'm also pretty sure Jayson (who is pretty creative) could have those signs made for less than $165 each. I think we really only need two (if we can get permission from Ft. Desoto... pretty sure that can happen. Both Jason and Scott have a good relationship with the rangers).

I just think that a sign ALONE won't do a whole lot. I have morals like most and try to follow the rules, but there are many more who disregard them completely. I would have no objections to the sign if still enacting the band idea. In fact, I would encourage it. I just think, for new riders, the goal is really to fit in with the other kiters and make some new friends. Part of the "fitting in" process would be to get the band so they aren't looked at like a hazard to us all. They would be much more welcomed that way.

but something is better than nothing..

if we post a sign then at least we can say to some new rider on the beach "hey.. this launch is for experience riders only.. did you read the sign?"


i still am wanting to get more ideas on how to make it more newbie-friendly.. but if we can get a sign at our local launches, thats a great great start.

Jay.. do you know if the rangers at Ft. Desoto would allow us to put one up if we can get one together? What about how to go about getting one at the skyway launches? Would that have to go thru the city?

Skyway wouldn't really be an issue since the city doesnt claim it and the county doesnt want it. Also it isn't a "city park" so no issue there.
East Beach would take some negotiating with the rangers. Either I or Scott could talk to them about this. It definitely needs to be presented to them in the correct way. The city parks dept. has a rule against posting signs that we need to skirt somehow.

Maybe we could provide the sign, and Ft. Desoto would install it. I am about 90% sure that the head ranger would be happy to do this... he is a nice guy and has been concerned when people got hurt in the past... not because he wanted to ban us but because he actually cared. He was there when bayflite earned his name, so he knows our history. The worst thing that is going to happen is that he will say he can't do it because the city won't let him (legal reasons), and that's the end of it.

It's worth a shot. It's no secret that everyone rides there!

However, PLEASE nobody take it upon themselves to do this. Let Jay or Scott make the call if thats what we are going to do.

Interesting couple of days for all. There are some seasoned folks out there that I respect alot. May not always agree, but still have alot of respect for what they have witnessed over the years and what they are trying to accomplish today.

I did mention awhile back about posting some signs at these very same spots, but no one seemed to be very interested. I am glad to see that it may become a reality.

I agree 100% that either side of the Skyway is no place for someone to hone their skills after their lessons are complete. The signs for these areas should indicate intermediate to advanced riders only. Upwind ability is a must. Jumping close to shore should be avoided. Hazards of the skyway area should be posted.

As far as East Beach is concerned, a different approach should be taken. This is a great spot for someone to hone there skills. The experienced riding area should be defined. It should be suggested for new riders to walk way upwind of the riding area and start their walk again once they have reached the riding area. I don't feel East Beach should be labeled an intermediate to advance spot the way the Skyway should be labeled. Education is key. If are bands are used, then new riders should be told to approach someone with an armband for help and advice. Rules of the road should also be posted on signs. Parking should also be addressed. Wrapping lines. Common courtesy basically.

All instructors of the area should be on board with these policies and incorporate into their lessons educating their students on how to approach east beach and how not to ride the Skyway. I have done this since day one. This info is all covered again in a 2 hour session in the shop before a student even flies a kite. It is the ultimate ground school as it pertains directly to kiting in the bay area and keeping things safe. I hope more will follow this idea.

I will do my part to educate new riders before entering the water, but it will be ultimately up to the riders of the areas to see it all through. Especially when a visitor shows up or someone that has not taken lessons all that seriously.

We will have 6 PASA certified instructors on staff this upcoming season and two boats at our disposal. The majority of our lessons will take place out of site, with an occassional lesson at East Beach on light wind uncrowded days. We will educate riders about the dangers of the Skyway and promote East Beach as a training ground to hone one's skills. All with a good sound plan of course.....walk up wind, go out on less crowded days, know your limits, and practice safe and courteous kiting.

So for those clowns that show up at these launches and seem uneducated, I think these signs, and armbands will be a good step towards keeping it safe and coming together as a kiting community. I believe whatever is decided, anything will help. Doing nothing is the worst idea of all.

Please let me know if there is anything I can do.

Steve-O

i think for skyway.. we could put together a sign that is aimed directly at kiteboarders with a number of agreed upon rules listed...

for EB the sign prob would need to be more towards the spectators for their safety and then some rules for the kiters..

fact is that I have pulled up the EB many times to have a couple families of 4 with their car parked to the shoreline, the kids playing in the best launch area and the parents preparing for a nice day at the beach.

we have to respect them and their rights and i think by gearing a sign for their safety might be better than trying to claim EB as a kite beach.

Something to think about i believe.

Well, lets start with the rules.

Lets start with just 5 rules and see how that goes. Pick the 5 most important and keep them as short and to the point as possible.

Examples:

1) Do not kite without proper training.
2) Please do not jump or ride near shore
3) Please roll up lines and secure kite when you are not riding
4) Please do not park or sit near launch areas
5) Watch chidren at all times

Change these however you feel fit... it's just an example.

How about adding

6) DO NOT MAKE MAN-LOVE IN THE MANGROVES.

Because it sounds like the instructors may be getting together quickly to discuss the situation, I have some suggestions that may benefit all involved (they are just suggestions).

There are quite a few local instructors now, I think they total 15 or more (at least 10).

My suggestion focuses on East Beach and ignores west winds and the SW for now.
EB on NE to SSW winds is probably where many (not all) local riders will practice after recently receiving lessons. In terms of where new riders practice that may "jeopardize a spot" or "interact in a dense crowd", EB takes the cake.

Since local instructors know most new riders (they just taught them) it might be possible to pass out a common colored wrist band to these new riders from all local instructors. As stated by others, I don't view this band as a stigma. On the contrary, I would be more helpful to a person with this newbie band and less likely to yell at them on the water following a mistake (I do occasionally yell, if I think a vet cut me off on purpose... if it were newbie, I would just stay away or politely stop him and take a minute to explain)

Okay, here is the beef of my suggestion. On weekends that are forecast to be breezy out of a direction suitable for EB, could the local instructors communicate amongst themselves to arrange for one (maybe 2) instructors to not teach anywhere, but instead volunteer to be at EB to help out with these new riders (that are recognized by the newly given out band from instructors)?
If they were ten instructors and it blew every single weekend, that would be about one weekend every 2.5 months if one instructor was the "watch man" and designated helper at EB.

The watch man would generally just be a giver of advice and a watchful eye. He/she might also talk a new rider off the water in really windy conditions, etc.

The other thing the watch man could do is note the progress of the newer riders, and at some point, through communication among instructors, give them an "upgraded" band, signifying they are qualified or ready to ride at the Skyway. Until this qualified band (or ribbon on the lines) is received, maybe we could assume the rider shouldn't be at the SW, or at the very least, be more keen to him.

If the instructors accept this initiative it will be a very strong signal of responsibility to our whole kiting community about just how serious you guys take instruction, helping with progress, education, and safety. It's a suggestion that allows you to take the lead, if you will. We (the local riders, non-instructors) can then play a supporting role (maybe following a similar model of volunteering once a month for an hour, or similar).


No one is better qualified for this "continued education" of newbies following lessons and it's a possible means to also monitor progress (upgrade bands). I think it's a good idea. :)

Any thoughts, Steve (s)?

If the red (watch out) wristband idea is to be used, here's a few thoughts. instead of explaining to the new riders that they are dangerous, spin it into a positive thing and tell them that their color signifies a new rider who can be monitored by experienced riders in case they get into trouble. For those that say "i'm fine" or whatever, then we can take a bit harsher tone and explain that in order to keep our awesome launches, the local community has agreed upon these rules (on board) and if you choose not to comply, find another launch (very nicely and using better verbage of course).

FYI. i looked into the promotions catalog that i have and there are four things that stood out.

1. the lance armstrong type bracelet : 99 cents per bracelet but a minimum of 300...i'm sure we could get them in a smaller quantity somewhere else, but this is a good reference. they come in many colors including glow in the dark (hello night ride!!!) and rainbow for e-bone.

2. The party bracelets that we have all worn to get into bars, clubs, etc. They are disposable so people won't have to remember to bring them and they come to 28 cents a piece for 500. 15 colors to choose from.

3. neoprene wrist bands (reusable obviously) at 1.60/bracelet with a minimum of 100. this one comes in hot pink for ebone and chamo for roy (to go with the rest of his gear of course)

4. They make plastic luggage tags that are colored that can easily be put onto the back of someone's harness (or somewhere out of the way) they range from 1.38/piece for 250 to more simple ones for 79 cents for 250. They both are about the size of a standard business card and come with a rubber strap to attach to you, your luggage, etc.

If anyone has other ideas for identification of riders (the luggage tag could be really great because you could put your name and emergency contact right in there (where you'd put your name on an airplane).

I'm 100% in agreement about the signs. I think that as the season progresses we will be running into trouble and may need to implement the next step in the action plan which would be the braclets, tags, etc. and it would be nice to already have a product picked out instead of rushing around looking for a piece of duct tape to strap to my forehead saying i'm a yellow. :)

As a former certified watersports instructor (still certified by the way but OBVIOUSLY not for kiting :) i think that the instructors working together can bring so much to this sport/community. I am really looking forward to the things they come up with and their dedication to safe and happy riding. High five to the instructors that are comitted to this.

the rules
 

some people may not be happy about it but i think one of the rules should include that if you are kiting, your dogs should be leashed to your car, a tree, etc. if you are there to watch them, that's great. i love letting my dogs run in the water too, but if i'm on the water, they become nothing but a liability and in many cases, a nuisance.

Just a reference to other signs that have been used in other places:

http://www.fksa.org/showthread.php?t=3038

Scott's idea is pretty good.

I think this is a GREAT opportunity for Kite4Life/TritonKiteboarding/WSW to get the instructors together and ENCOURAGE COOPERATION regarding safety at our spots.

1) Passing out beginner bands to new students and upgrading it to a another color when they have more experience.

2) Beginner bands ride at East Beach but not at the skyway.

3) An instructor at each location to encourage safe riding practice.

If Jim the head ranger showed up at East Beach and saw that we had a system of instructors who are volunteering to help and encourage safety i am sure he would be impressed.

The instructors would naturally benefit from the contact with riders.

This seems opportunity for kite4life/Triton/WSW to make a positive impact on the sport.

Kite-4-Life and Triton Kiteboarding are in the works of organizing signs and a band system. We are using the suggestions from this thread to base our decisions. We will have a meeting this weekend with a number of instructors agree on a final decision about what should be mentioned in signs and how the band system will work, the progress will be updated on the forum and if anyone has any questions call me and i'll fill you in 203 918 6637. We realize the importance and the urgency and were handling the issue asap.
-Matt Sexton
www.TritonKiteboarding.com

i think this sign is a must have:confused:

Scott,

I like your suggestion. Armbands are a good idea. Instructors will need to make the call when to upgrade them to a self-sufficient rider. I am sure we can get together and hash out the details of that. Simple enough. It will take some time but we have about a month left before the winds really start coming. It may take a little time thorughout the season to iron out the kinks, but overall a great idea.

All other riders in the area that are self sufficient will ride with a seperate color right???? Remember, we need to clearly be able to identify a non locals or locals that shows up, is having problems, and no arm band. Think about it, someone approaches you to launch their kite....you don't recognize them....you look for an armband....they don't have one...it sparks a conversation. Maybe you put them up after they convince you they are sufficient....but you still keep a watchful eye. Maybe you don't. Your judgement may then stem a variety of scenerios after that. But at least you had some info before even launching the kite. It may not work 100% but it is definately better than the system we have.

Ok back to the topic of instructor volunteering....

Keeping a watchful eye and doing a rotation I also think will be simple enough to coordinate. Someone will have to be in charge to make sure their is coverage. If all the instructors agree, then I am sure we can come up with a schedule of rotation. I know Matt and his crew from Triton spend alot of time down there. My team doesn't, but I am not saying we can't have a representative when it's our turn. I don't feel the burden should be left to Matt just because he is there alot.

Steve S. and myself will try to spearhead a meeting soon to put something together. Those that want to be involved will. Those that won't won't. Hopefully the kiting community will support those instructors and schools that want to make this happen.

Signs signs....yes let's make some freakin signs already. It's long overdue. It can't hurt. We (the instructors) can get the armband thing going and the coverage. The veterans out there need to continue to discuss the signs and get something to happen. We are so close to this being a reality. We should set a deadline for Oct. 1. I think that is a reasonable timeframe for both projects. If we can send Billy to Cabarete in less than a week, we can pull this off in a month.

I think all those that give input, keep an eye on the big picture.

Signs.....yes!
Armbands....yes!
Instructor watchouts....yes!

Let's not get bogged down by all the details.

I would like to elect Steve S. to be in charge of the instructor meeting. He brought it up, and I would like to see him see it through. I will assist in this area.

Amber seems hot on the armbands. Let's figure out what we want, how much it will cost, and where the funds will come from. I will hit Steve LeVine and WSW and see what he can contribute. Maybe some kite companies can sponser the concept. If we gotta raise funds than we gotta raise it.

Jayson seems to be hot on the sign area. Maybe he can spearhead that. Again content, cost, constructions, and red tape.

Let the ideas flow, let's try not to re-invent the wheel. This could be a hard undertaking, but let's not let it.

We will keep you guys posted about the instructor meeting and how that all pans out.

Steve-O

Matt...just saw your post. Let's get together this weekend. Where and what time. I am free on Sunday. I think we are on the same page with this.

Let's talk soon!!!

I like where this is heading. This will def. keep us in the good graces of most officials. Steve-O....if we wanted to try and make this a county-wide kiteboarding system I would be willing to handle north county. I just don't ride south as much as I do up here. Keep up the good work guys. :)

I also like where this is going.

Good work guys... and hats off to everyone who contributed ideas to this thread.

The last post from Kite4Life+Triton and Steve-O pretty much nailed what we are trying to accomplish.

We have enough instructors that it should be easy to rotate... and we really only need them at the most common spots (EB and Skyway). No reason they can't ride too if they have someone else with them to keep an eye on whats going on while they are riding.

We probably only need two colors (newb and self sufficient) unless the instructors want to wear their own color (not a bad idea).

If this system is implemented and we have an accident, we can honestly show that we do everything in our power to promote safety .. and that could make the difference between a ban and just an unfortunate accident.

That said, I don't think there is anything else I can so I am out of this thread so you guys can get some work done.

Arm Bands
 

Just got off the phone with Steve LeVine owner of WSW. He will contribute $100.00 to the purchase of armbands.

I think the rubbery kind will work best and easiest to see.

Amber are those the Armstrong kind???

When folks are done riding they can put it around their rear view mirror until the next session.

I like the idea of 3 colors. 1 color for self sufficient riders. 1 color for new riders. 1 color for instructors.

I think we can divide the armbands amongst the instructors of the area and they can get them passed out to the appropriate level of rider.

I am sure this will be an ongoing process. We just need to keep it simple.

Cool. :) Just a couple more suggestions, some of which have already been stated.

It's such a minor detail and I don't want it to bog stuff down, but ribbons on the kite lines at about 20 feet up have a few advantages.

One, you aren't likely to forget your ribbon, once it is on your lines, it's part of your equipment. I am oh so likely to honestly forget the arm band, that I bet I wouldn't have it one most of the time out of bad memory. I see us going thru a larger number of arm bands (lost, forgotten) than ribbons.

The ribbon can be also be seen from a further distance and from every direction, as well.

It might be advantageous to just focus on EB for the first couple of months, in terms of the signs and the instructor watch-outs, to make sure one area is "kick ass" with coverage instead of several all being "so-so". EB is a "hot spot" for new riders, so to me, this makes sense.

I think a little cooperation from a large number of people is going to go an awful long ways to insuring kiting safety and fun.

I don't care for the ribbons... I'd rather see one consistent indicator. But that doesn't mean I am against the idea either.

If you forget your arm band it's your own problem... a bunch of people are going to keep asking you if you know what you are doing and encourage you not to ride at the skyway :) After a day of that you won't forget it next time lol.

Ribbons are cool. I think they will be cheaper too. What is everyone else's thoughts. Something to hammer out at the meeting. I just think that it will be something up for discussion and hopefully everyone will support the outcome.

I will go with whatever the majority vote is.
Thing is, I am moderately certain that the ability to see the wrist band when upwind of someone will be exceptionally marginal. No biggie, we can always switch one for the other. ;)
Just getting it in motion is what counts.

If someone is about to catch or launch my kite I'd rather see a wrist band than guess which kite which belongs to them.

But I guess the instructors can sort this stuff out.

I can usually spot a newbie in two seconds once they are on the water. I need help telling if some one has a clue on the beach, and thats where questions need to be asked.

It would be nice to have some indicator out on the water that a rider not only can go upwind, but they understend right of way or they're not going to jump right in front of you.

I'm kind of cheap so I was thinking of using extra wide colored rubber bands they are cheaper than armstong type and they don't have them on the counter at the gas station.
http://www.rubberband.biz/custom.htm

Ok some great dialogue. It only seems from a few, but I am sure more are reading just not commenting.

There are two concerns that I hear.
1. Identifying someone on the beach that isn't with their kite.
2. Identifying someone on the water and their ability.

I feel that the armband concept would be an immediate indicator as soon as someone gets out of the car and starts to set up. It is something that everyone can see and look out for. Again prevention is what we are aiming for. The lack of an arm band would signal a discussion before someone even launches their kite. It may stop a problem before it even starts or at the very least allows for some healthy discussion of the rider in question. I think most new riders will admit their inexperience, but if asked to leave and go to East Beach may be tricky. We'll have to see how it works. We won't know until we try. Everyone should be sensitive to anyone in question.

Like stated before, a newbie can be spotted a mile away when on the water, but not necessarily when setting up their kite and preparing to launch.

I think the armband is the way to go as it covers prevention and shows a unified effort right on the beach. Something that will go a long way when a discussion is brought up with a rider in question. Imagine a new rider being confronted and as they are being spoken with they see all these armbands on other riders. It will be a lot harder for that rider to show resistance.

Again, I think we will have to go with an idea and see how it works. I am certain we will have to tweak it as time passes.

Your thoughts on this are welcome as I am sure some type of decision will be made this Saturday.

By the way.......are we having a race this year?

Steve-O, sounds good. I agree with everything you said. Looking forward to seeing how this works out. If we keep it simple, I think it will.

After reading this, it does sound like bands will most be most useful for most riders. I suggest (the obvious) make them very bright and have the colors substantially different from one another, maybe bright red and bright yellow.
Oh, please don't have us wear some 80's "Staying Alive, John Travolta" arm band, please. :)

Anyone remember the Ultimate Warrior? He combined wrist bands an arm tassles which when used in the proper combination, made you look like a true bad ass :) :confused:

Why not attach this band or ribbon to the back of one's harness. Most of us walk around the beach with our harness on anyways, even when we're taking breaks. Seems to me like that would be a more suitable location for this indicator...whatever it may be. You'll see it when the kites are down and you'll see it when people are flying. 2 birds...1 stone

Yes, let's try to keep this thread on track. Let's review the goal.

Identify experienced vs. inexperienced riders.
Use the identification system to keep launch sites safer.

Secondary goal
Utilize instructors to monitor our launch sites for dangerous situations.

Since non profit orgs can still profit and employees can still take a salary it's possible someone misinterpreted your promotion and membership fees as you pushing your own agenda.

Obviously this is not the case. You are trying through your org to provide insurance, etc, to instructors and riders and that is respectable cause.

For now, to prevent confusion, lets just focus on a method for identifying new and experienced riders, and try to get instructors to enforce/use the system.

That's really what this thread, and the meeting this weekend is about.

We are trying to prevent another accident.

Maybe someone else could talk to Randy again later (after a system is developed) and see he'd be ok with just giving the bracelets to his new riders. Once he sees the system in use he may change his mind.

i guess you wont be getting a wrist band then.... you'll be a newbie for life... :)
J/K

I will gladly wear the band and abide by agreed upon rules.
I'd just assume leave the rest up to others to avoid being entangled in anything.

Ive been trying to find something for this ID band/card/thingy..

went to west marine to see if they have any Hi-Vis clip-on tags or something similar.. I really think something that simply attaches to the back of your harness is the best that way you dont have to deal with the wrist band every time..

Something that might attach with a locking carabiner... definitely dont want this to catch on any lines or something like that..

maybe just a simple hi-vis laminated card attached to the harness w/ a carabiner.. something small but visible..

If we want to get more official we could probably get some custom made plastic tags that we could attach to our harnesses with a fancy logo or something on it..

Streamers, wrist bands, tags and stickers have been used in various parts of the world. I would choose something that is easily visible, unique, non-divisible and readily breaks away if tangled by a powered up kite.

People can be pretty strange about this sort of thing given that they exist solely as a rule to allow them to continue to ride. Guys have counterfeited stuff, cut streamers in two to share with friends, etc.. I wouldn't get too obsessed about making it totally inviolate but would consider some past problems along the way toward putting together what you will.

Important point, I second the sentiments about doing something. It is easy to have things die in committee with the problem still remaining. So, figure out the minimum needed, what seems to be fair and reasonable and do it.

Good luck

With the meeting set for Saturday, I will not be able to attend due to obligations at the shop. Sat. is a busy day for us.

I think my stance has been clear. I am in support of an identification system. I do want it to be easy and effective. The less red tape the better. I also support the rotation of an instructor watch at East Beach and other spots if needed.

As this week has developed, I want to be clear that I have no preference for Randy teaching at the Skyway. If he feels he can conduct a safe lesson there, which he has hundreds of times, then that is HIS choice. I can respect that. I know Randy has assisted numberous new riders throughout the years at the Skyway regardless of who they were. His heart is always in the right place. It is however my choice not to teach there for my own reasons.

As far as new students returning to the Skyway to ride backside or frontside, that is an interesting debate that may just be that....a debate. I do feel that place can feel very crowded and not leave much room for a new rider to navigate there very well. That issue may not be resolved. All I can do is recommend that any new rider I teach not travel to either side of the Skyway until they are at an intermediate level of riding skill. Those that do so take their chances.

If a system develops that suggests new riders to stay clear of the Skyway area until there skills are up, I definately support that.

Looking forward to how the meeting goes. Wish I could be there.

I have heard Randy does not want any part of this, but as someone in the center of it all, I sincerely hope he will at least listen to all of our concerns.