Kite in the highway cause car accident.

[Kiteboarding Tampa Bay]

www.kiteboardingtampabay.com

[Steve-O]

To Steve with Kiteboarding Tampa Bay,

Thanks for the public insults.

I personally have loaned my ski out on two occasions for ASF events. The ski was run all day and I asked nothing in return. The kids had a blast. No biggie that I was given the ski back with an empty tank.

I also loaded up as many paddle boards as I could carry to bring down to Ft. Desoto so the orphaned kids could have a bit of fun on the water. I was there all day for that one and the paddle boards were a big hit.

We did this again at Lake Seminole at another ASF event and paddles were lost never to be compensated. Again, no biggie...it is what is is.

Alot of beach clean-ups are on Saturday, and unfortunately we work those days.

Sorry you feel our store or myself has not supported ASF. It hurts to hear you feel that way to the public.

So back to the matter at hand. I have offered a simple solution to try and deal with some of these problems specifically at the Skyway rest area. I am not sure how we cause the mess there since we don't teach a single student there and don't recommend our beginners to go there. If anything, our school is presently the only waverunner supported school taking students to the safest teaching spots the bay area has to offer. Most the time you won't even see our lessons. They're in no ones way and there is no chance for a runaway kite to get to any beach or road for that matter. North and South county folks love our program because it keeps the riding area clear of beginners and lessons. We even give students a lift on the ski to get them way upwind away from everyone. What could be better than that?


Just so I am clear on where I stand: I will support any agenda that will effectively keep our sites safe. The simplier the better.

The North County Kiteboarding Community has effectively had the city of Tarpon Springs install the bay area's only PERMANENT kiteboarding safety sign with posted rules and riding practice. This was paid for and installed by the city of Tarpon Springs. The NCKC has also come together and created suggested ride maps for the following location: Sunset Beach, Howard Park, and Honeymoon Island/Caladesi Island. The NCKC also instated a liason for each riding location to keep up to date with any issues that may be interepeted as problems by city, county, and state officials. The NCKC has also started an easy to use FACEBOOK page for it's member to communicate and support our mission. Feel free to have a look around...

http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/334398226575261/members/

The NCKC was created by a passionate group of people that want to preserve their kiteboarding access and I am honored to be a part of this group.

Furthermore, I recall speaking with you on the phone to try and help you set something like this up. I wasn't going to be the person to do it all, but I was going to help and offer advice. I told you to find 6 people that feel as passionate as you and the ball would start rolling. I never heard back. I even offered to help recruit some of the founding members of NCKC to help with the building process of a similar type of organization.

Steve has also never attended an NCKC function or event to even try to learn about what we are doing. You would think if something is working, you would want to learn from that model.

Yes I am going to keep going........

Your agenda seems to revolve around certification and insurance. AND I SUPPORT THAT. However, certify and insure every instructor at the Skyway and it still doesn't solve the problem of having tons of beginners kiting there and potentially causing harm to the public on the highways. It doesn't resolve the problem of lessons being completely in the way of everyone else. Conduct the safest lesson on the planet there, and it still doesn't keep the beginners from coming back. Beginners will go to where they are taught and especially if their instructor is hanging around.

I care very much about kiting access in Tampa Bay and feel I will put effort into something that will actually have an effect. We certainly would pick up tons of lessons with our waverunner program at the Skyway, but it wouldn't completely go against our philosphy of being there.

The tone of your post is exactly why you have trouble getting my support. We can agree to disagree how to get the job done, but the bottom line is this.

T ogether
E veryone
A chieves
M ore

You have not responded to my phone calls and PM's are nothing more than an email in my book.

Find a record of me ditching TBKA or ASF anywhere. You won't! Find proof that I have suported these organizations with the resources I have as stated above. Just ask Amber or Bill Parker.

To the public reading this: Steve's heart is in the right place. He has spent more time than anyone trying to resolve issues in South County. On behalf of the store we commend him for his efforts and have supported many charity events. This incident should be a wake up to everyone of the dangers of teaching at the Skyway. How we choose to resolve them should be done in a very diplomatic non-threating way. I refuse to work with someone who is going to outright lie publicy in an effort to make us look like we don't care and help push an agenda that WILL NOT directly solve the problem. This is the biggest problem with an organziation such as TBKA and it's founder. IMO this is why nothing has been resolved. No one wants to listen to a dictator! You stand alone on an island of craziness and when someone wants to offer help you should figure out a way to use it, not push it away.

If you are an instructor, then you represent the kiteboarding industry. It is our responsibility as an industry to make choices for our students that will keep everyone safe and access open.

I don't expect everyone to support my opinion, but I do look forward to hearing other opinions as long as they are diplomatic, honest, and not insulting.

Sincerely,
Steve Visnage
School Manager
Watersports West
"the Bay Area's only waverunner supported kiteboarding school"

[Kiteboarding Tampa Bay]

www.kiteboardingtampabay.com

[robertovillate]

@ Steve-O

Well said. Could not agree with you more on everything you said about this issue. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate and to illuminate.

[Steve-O]

Your either democrat or republican these days. But sometimes each side has to join together to get anything done. A great lesson in politics.

The irony here is Steve and I both want the same thing but we want to go about it differently.

The minute an organization such as TBKA posts guidelines and rules and releases them to the public, TBKA is now in a place of liability.

This is the single most important reason NCKC is set up the way it is and is supported by so many members. I do not know many people that want to be in a postition of liability for suggested ride maps and kiteboarding rules.

Food for thought.

I think this is great discussion, I just hope the insults can stay to a minimum and we can stay focused on the task at hand.

KITES ON THE HIGHWAY AT SKYWAY

The only thing we can really accomplish is to come together and create ride maps and kiteboarding rules that are nothing other than suggestion. You will never be able to enforce or dicate. You will only have the power to suggest. But suggestion can make on impact.

All I ask of anyone that is reading these posts is one thing. Read what is suggested and ask yourself if that is going to keep kites off of the highway.

Our school does not operate there or send our students there to practice. This is our contribution to keeping kites off of the highway.

Thanks for listening and Roberto I know we have had our differences in the past, but it's nice to know we stand united about issues that are beyond running a business.

Steve Visnage

[Steve-O]

From KTB
"Had that been my kite or my student in the road, my 1+ Million liability policy would have covered not only the kiter, but the people in the car as well. Not only is it peace of mind for me and my students, but for the local kiters as well...;-) "

Being an IKO member allows you to get insurance not only as an instructor but also as a rider. Not a bad idea if you find yourself in a situation like this. Problem is, self learners or newbies at Skyway, likely do not know of this insurance option. In a perfect world, this would be awesome. But ask yourself, if a kite lands on the highway, and you are insured and it causes a severe accident, do you really think officials are gonna care about some insurance policy? Sure your covered if someone wants to sue for liability, but is the spot safe from being shut down. I personally think not.

The only answer is to self police the area and politely ask schools to teach elsewhere. Less newbies, less risk of problems.

I am considering attending the meeting for TBKA. However the focus from what I can tell is on instructor certification and insurance. I am still waiting for an answer or opinion from someone how this will resolve the issues at Skyway. Certify and insure every school operating there and it does not decrease the chance of a kite landing on the road. However if the kiteboarding community takes a stand and asks these businesses to operate elsewhere, I think the likelihood of a newb getting into trouble will decrease greatly. These schools don't have to comply, but at least they have been told. No one is saying anything as maybe they are too afraid. I am just one voice. But the power can come in numbers.

Steve has spent alot of time setting up TBKA, and he has struggled through the years to get your support. I think the reason for this is simple...riders in south county don't feel access is threatened. If the access doesn't feel threatened, why spend any time doing something about it.

I asked a seasoned rider today from Sarasota why he drives by the Skyway to make the extra effort to go to East Beach. His reply was simple....I feel safer at East Beach. There is more room to rig and ride. There are less lessons getting in the way, and generally stated that the amount of newbs that are pretty clueless about riding etiquette and just ability to ride is out of control. Backside skyway is a disaster he stated.

By no means am I judging the quality of the lessons at Skyway. I am not there and I can't comment. I am only questioning why they occur there. I am questioning why one would introduce beginners to an area where downwind hazards included trees, fences, rocks, and yes cars traveling 70mph.

Not to long ago a self learner got dragged into the rocks and broke his back. He sued the kite company for an ineffective quick release and won a $300,000 settlement. The jury didn't care he didn't have instruction and certainly didn't care about certification and insurance. He was also doped up at the time from a pre existing motorcycle accident.

I sometimes ask myself why I would subject myself to all of this regarding a spot I do not even ride at. I guess it's the leader inside and a matter of speaking up as a member of this industry and a member of the kiteboarding community. When you are in a leadership role you will get much criticism. I invite objective criticism but I also invite answers and solutions.

Not that it matters but thought it worth mentioning...I have a masters degree in teaching and recognized by the state of Florida. A one week course in teaching kitesurfing is recognized by no authority in the State of Florida. It's sounds all great and official, but in my professional opinion as someone who spent 7 years studying how to teach, it's kind of a joke. What other profession can you go get a weeks worth of training and then have the balls to demand $100 per hour. I think you have to earn that rate through time and experience. A certification is just a starting point. Real Kiteboarding has arguably the best training program and facility in the world. None of there 18 instructors are required to be certified by IKO or PASA. And the industry doesn't really seem to care. I have modeled my program after Real Kiteboarding and provide a much higher standard of training than outlined by PASA and IKO. PASA suggests a 45 minute ground school. I do 3 hours. PASA allows instructors to teach on foot. I don't. Wave runner only. These philosophies I share with Real Kiteboarding. They are true leaders in this industry, and these are the types of organizations I want to associate with and learn from. I am not knocking IKO or PASA however I am proof that things can be done at a higher standard and I don't need an organization to hold my hand to do it. With my training in education, it didn't take long to tear these curriculums apart and use them as a spring board to take it to another level. I do think any instructor needs to go through these courses. Wether they continue to pay these organizations money to have a card makes no difference to me. Experience is everything in this world. Teaching skill is something you develop over time. The fact that IKO and PASA allow instruction at the Skyway is at the root of my dissatisfaction with both these organizations. Again, my standard is higher. Why would I support a organization that allows something to happen in my own backyard that I am dead set against. Why support an organization that allows instruction near a major highway downwind?

I could go on and on about these two organizations but I will save you the boredom.

I think I'm done talking about this for now. Fire the bullets but aim wisely.

Steve-o

[rando1994]

Three years ago my first lesson was at the east skyway. It was exhausting, exhilarating and downright crazy to try to learn there. I had one moment of brilliance where it all came together as I raced downwind, through kiter traffic, toward the rocks by the highway. Riding, yes. But completely out of control. I was wise enough to not just lock up. Instead dropped everything and dove for the water. Stopped well short of the rocks, but close enough to realize what a bad location that was to learn kiting. My instructor was 400 yards upwind and any advice he may have had was worthless as soon as I started planing downwind...

Next lesson was with Steve o and his ski. A mile offshore off sunset beach. I'll never forget him following me just upwind on his ski, hollering advice and instruction as I concentrated on keeping the kite in the air and my feet under me. I had no idea where I was other than knowing no matter how fast or far i went, Steve o was right there with encouragement.

When I finally dumped the kite, I bet I was 4 miles downwind of sunset beach.

I don't know anything about pasa, iko, or any kite teaching organization. What I do know, is if you are a newb, you need to ride a ski, wayyyy offshore with your instructor, and then get your lessons on.

Nothing, IMHO, will cause your skills to progress faster than being able to ride without worrying about navigation, other kiters, obstacles, land, etc.

I had the luck of getting going on my first dive of the kite. The rest was not pretty, but as I rode off, I had the sublime luxury of endless terrain downwind and an instructor in my ear.

Learning on foot? Sorry, all work and very little payoff.

And one last note:

Steve o may be one opinionated sob, but he's the most fair instructor you'll find. My second lesson, he had his ski, took me out, and even though I was booked for three hours with him, he really only dropped me off then 'kept an eye' on me. For over three hours. He would not take our previously agreed upon $300.

I can say with all sincerity that I have recommended Steve o and his ski to everyone asking about instruction in the Tampa area.

Ktb? You have skills and passion, I'll give you that. But I see you at skyway all the time and the only vibe I get from you is arrogance. Not friendly or helpful, at least from my own perspective.

That said, skyway is becoming a kookfest. I'd be happy to work toward an effort to organize and help maintain access.

[robertovillate]

Originally Posted by Steve-O

Thanks for listening and Roberto I know we have had our differences in the past, but it's nice to know we stand united about issues that are beyond running a business.

Steve Visnage

Actually no major "differences" really. Sorry if you felt that was the case. As for promoting the Skyway launches as training grounds - I've specifically discouraged this for anyone that takes lessons with me or asks about it. IMO, that instruction occurs there is simply a shameless, lazy, selfish and reckless form of self-promotion.

Again, you've made more good points which I support and agree with wholeheartedly so I'll try not to repeat what has already been said. I think protecting beach access (and generally safe kiting practice) starts with the first lessons and the influences the student has from day one...and hopefully that tempers attitudes as someone progresses from a "newbie" to a world class pro. Unfortunately this sport is stll so young that most people don't see the need for - or want - regulation. I would prefer self-regulation but in some cases it obviously doesn't work. It would be great if everyone used common sense, self restraint, and respected the safety and enjoyment that other people deserve...but it certainly is not a perfect world.

The Tampa Bay kite community should be very grateful for the relatively relaxed attitudes toward our sport - because just at the other end of Alligator Alley it's like a whole different world. I think that trying to get organized locally is a good thing, but also a double edged sword. Once you have regulation, even on an informal (non-mandated) level, then who enforces it, reports offenders, makes the judgements, doles out penalties...and what is to ensure that everyone respects the codes set by the group (which does not have any official authority)? Unfortunately there will always be the mavericks and ignorami that will screw it up. So in this case it's a real conundrum.

In principle I would support a well organized effort with the right leadership. At the same time I wish we could just continue without all the formalities ..but realize that might not be sustainable. I'll certainly try to stay aware of what develops and hope something good comes out of the effort.

[Kiteboarding Tampa Bay]

www.kiteboardingtampabay.com

[robertovillate]

Originally Posted by Kiteboarding Tampa Bay

Not trying to stir the pot here....

Roberto, it's kinda the same for you with teaching at the Skyway- you did it for years as well,

No, you've never been known to stir the pot...get real dude. Sadly, this is so typical (for years) of your behaviour. Is it really any wonder why nobody wants to get behind you?

...and for the record I have never taught even one lesson at either of the mid-Skyway launches (north of the southbound toll) - so please don't try to include me in your hypocrisy. I have taught at the South Skyway launch...a long way to the east of the parking area.