Florida Kiteboarding Community?????

[Steve-O]

I have been a member of this forum for many years now and have some important questions for you folks.

My name is Steve Visnage and I have been teaching kiteboarding in the Tampa Bay area since 2006.

With a new baby in the house, I have decided not to pursue teaching lessons any more. Haven't taught a lesson since the New Year and don't know if I will ever teach again.

So these questions come more as the perspective of a rider and not an instructor.

There is a percentage of kiters out there that are concerned about access and the future of the sport. I fall into this category.

Years ago I rallied alot of kiters here in the Tampa Bay area to form the North County Kiteboarding Community. The mission of this group was to perserve access for kiteboarding in North Pinellas County. We created ride maps, developed relationships with govt officials, and presented publicy via Facebook a page with all this information and basic kiteboarding safety guidelines.

I see a need for this community of concerned kiters to spread beyond the reach of north Pinellas county. I think it's safe to say that every spot in Florida could use some basic guidelines, ride maps, and liasons that can develop working relationships with govt officials.

If you have read this far....ask yourself these important questions

1. Does your local spot have some basic guidelines for everyone to follow?
2. Are these guidelines written somewhere publicy for everyone to see?
3. Does your local spot have a clear ride map defining where to rig, where to ride, and more importantly where not to ride?
4. If an issue were to occur at your local spot, do you have a way to communicate quickly and solve problems before they get out of hand?

We decided that maps and guidelines can't be enforced, however, at least they are in writing and out there for anyone to see. It also shows gov't officials that govern our riding spots that an attempt has been made to have some sort of order and that the actions of one does not represent the group as a whole. We felt this alone can go along way in fighting a ban on kiting when one individual tries to screw it up for the group.

In addition in forming this group, we decided to keep it very informal and all members are defined as volunteers. This protects oneself against any liability. That was a concern in the forming of this group, and a lawyer advised us be "volunteers" as state and federal laws protect volunteers in liability cases.

Is there an interest out there to take this concept to all corners of the state? There is strength in numbers when dealing with issues regarding access.

Florida is a play ground for this sport and we owe it to ourselves and future generations to protect what is left. Kiteboarding is growing, and beaches aren't getting any larger.

I'm looking for interested individuals in different parts of the state that share common ideals regarding kiteboarding access.

Every organization started somewhere and I am hoping this thread could be the start of the Florida Kiteboarding Community. One large voice with the sole mission of preserving kiteboaring access for many years to come.

Take a look at the NCKC Facebook page and you will get a better idea of what I am talking about.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/334398226575261/

Feel free to message me with questions, ideas, or your willingness to push this ball down the mountain.

Steve Visnage

[ricki]

Many of those thoughts and concerns were behind the launching of the FKA and this site twelve years ago. Wide based participation can be elusive, that doesn't stop you from trying to do what you can as an individual and in smaller groups. A state wide database of launch rules/guidelines might be a good thing as long as it is not misused by visitors and kept up to date. I have noticed that some of the larger databases of launch sites rarely talk about local rules on a wide basis.

[Kiteboarding Tampa Bay]

Here's a couple of questions I'd like you guys to answer-

1. How should an instructor be deemed 'qualified' to teach?
In my opinion, a simple solution is to require certification from IKO or PASA, and, most importantly, a suitable liability insurance policy specific to teaching kiteboarding lessons. Do you agree or disagree, and why?

2. How would business to business issues be handled?

If this in fact a serious discussion, we can start with those 2 simple questions.

Happy Kiting!
www.kiteboardingtampbay.com

[ricki]

Training/certification is a broad topic which needs serious work but not sure how much good will be done outside the training organizations. I have spent a great deal of time over the years trying to improve things with questionable results on my own. An effective trade group would go a long way in managing such things. Who knows if we'll ever have one however or at least when. In the interim, I would say use tact and mutual respect in discussions to try to work things out.

[Steve-O]

The two questions imposed are valid and am curious what others have to say.

They seem to carry tones of "kiteboaring biz" rather than the questions I asked which carry tones of "rider behavior".

The NCKC was not created to govern the business of kiteboarding rather to suggest ridemaps and guidelines to those that enjoy the sport of kiteboarding and seek to preserve access.

With that said, if the majority want to get involved with guidelines for kiteboarding businesses than that is the direction this thread should go. However, if the majority would rather focus on rider behavior, then the thread should move in that direction.

Nothing is to say it can't head in both directions.

I guess it would be cool to have a place on the web that lists all riding spots around the state of Florida complete with a ride map and some basic guidelines. A contact person for the spot would be an added bonus.

In addition, schools could be listed by region with a labeling system that informs any individual of the following

1. Certification IKO/PASA
2. Licenced and registered as a business in the state of Florida
3. Insured (a liability policy covering kiteboarding instruction)
4. Boat or ski supported instruction

Anyone following this thread that shares an interest you have to understand that by no means should you think you have to enforce anything. The beauty of this system is to simply inform and educate information. It is nothing more complicated than that. The minute "enforcement" comes to mind, this will instantly fail.

The only people that can enforce anything are police, park officials, and any other governing body.

If we show that we are organized, then you have some substance when problems occur that the group should not be punished for an individual's action.

Liasons can be a powerful asset. We have one park in particular that some riders love to ride. However, the beach has eroded and it's tough to find space. Through some meetings, the NCKC liason has worked with the park rangers to identify how the park should be used by kiters. Where to rig, where to enter the water, and where to ride or not to ride. The rangers appreciate the communication and feel they have someone they can go to if they see or hear of a problem. This is a far better situation that feeling like they have to take matters into there own hands when there is a problem.

So far it has worked. The Tampa Bay area to this day still enjoys unrestricted access to over 15 spots of which many are located in city, county, and state parks. Considering we live in a very populated area, this is a miracle. I personally chalk it up to caring and quality instructors from all walks of life, good leadership by veteran kiters, and good old fashion communication.

Florida is listed as the #2 Kiteboarding Destination in the world only behind Hawaii. More kiters are coming. More tourists are coming. Is your spot safe from extinction? Have you done all that can be done to preserve access?

Let's not talk about problems, let's talk about solutions.

Steve-O

[Kiteboarding Tampa Bay]

Let's not beat around the bush and get to the point-
1. The problems are not with regular kiters at all, but with the people in the business, primarily irresponsible retailers and unqualified/ uninsured instructors.

2. Nothing you have done with NCKC has exempted the county from a fat lawsuit when an uninsured instructor's student gets hurt. You know as well as I do who those people are, and have fueled that risk by putting uncertified/ uninsured instructors for MANY years on ALL of our beaches. What would the county say about that?

3. Based on what I know about NCKC, it was set up and pushed by WSW instructors and friends, and you guys have made quite a bit of cash from telling people they can pay for supervised practice, or leave. That's a fact, Jack.

4. You told me face to face that "We have Sunset Beach on lockdown. You will never see another instructor up there".

5. Common sense will tell you that you can't solve a problem without first addressing what the problem is. #1 addresses what the problem is, and you (Watersports West) run the biggest lesson operation in central Florida, therefore ARE the biggest risk, period. You have a duty to operate responsibly, and won't even admit who is working for you!

6. Your whole premise of NCKC is to appear like you're an authority, but not to accept responsibility.

*If you intend on posting up again, you can start with a list of your instructors and their insurance policies. Until then, go back to the drawing board Steve-O, you haven't a leg to stand on....

Have a nice day!
www.kiteboardingtampbay.com

[Steve-O]

1. Your opinion and noted

2. NCKC Mission statement "The purpose of NCKC is to protect the access to kite boarding in North Pinellas County thru education of fellow riders with emphasis on ensuring the safety of fellow beach users and kiters."

3. NCKC was created by concerned kiters seeking to preserve access. We don't live in Idaho, we live in the Tampa Bay Area, therefore it's obvious we are all interconnected through mutual friendships.

The supervised practice or leave comment is dillusional at best! LOL

4. The spot mentioned was Howard County Park, 1/4 mile north of Sunset. This park loss access for years due to one reckless kiter, not one reckless instructor.

5. We are 100% accident free since I have been on board in 2005, and with the use of Waverunners not only do we assist kiters in trouble, but keep our students away from other kiters. Far away. Sometimes so far kiters don't even know we're there.
Currently, all lessons are subcontracted to Down South Kite and Paddle. They are licensed and insured.

With that said, what is your accident record? Never mind, you don't have to answer that.

6. NCKC is not an authority or accepts responsibility. It is simply a way to relay valuable information to preserve kiteboarding access.

Now back on topic.......

Good news, I have already been contacted by numerous kiters who are interested in creating new ride maps and guidelines for their local riding spots.

There is a really great group of kiters in the Tampa Bay Area and we all want to kite here with unlimited access, and pass it to the next generation.

I'm excited to see where this goes and look forward to building a data base of riding spots with info created by the locals. It would be cool to have this all located in one location.

A local St. Pete kiter today is moving to Tampa and wanted the lowdown on the Tampa spots. He got an earful of info from some helpful riders and a perfect opportunity to put all that info on a ride map and set of guidelines for all to see and share.

[troubleshooter]

A state wide database may be too large of an area to cover. I often see outdated information in the various "comprehensive" kitebeach trackers out there. That outdated information in itself causes more problems then if that information were not even available.

Regional databases managed by kiters that call that region their home turf is more likely of a solution. My home range is anywhere from middle keys to central Florida east coast. I could tell you tons about those locations, but I couldn't tell you much about anywhere else in Florida without 100% confidence that the "rules" haven't changed since I was last there.

I seem to remember something Rick said about Hobie Beach or maybe I just read it somewhere. The authorities seemed to blame us in a way for not keeping things more organized and once they had to really step in....well that was it. So Im a bit confused on how we can distance ourselves and at the same time allow the authorities to handle issues. That topic needs a lot of discussion and calrification. It really comes down to responsible locals that guide the way.

We all know who the responsible locals are at our beaches. Its not the gung ho kiters that are busy bodys in everybody's business. No respect will be earned from that. Its the guys and gals that are there all the time, even when they are not kiting. The ones that land your kite without you even asking. The ones that take the time to explain to a noob what they are doing wrong and not just sitting back with their buddies laughing at them behind their back. Its the ones who dont care about looking cool. You know, the cool guy that comes in hot, jumps of his board, and hops around like a grasshopper with his kite at 12 right on the beach going from buddy to buddy yapping away.

Local kite control is the only effective way I have witnessed. I have seen several local kite groups in other areas that are very effective. One that comes to mind is the CGKA for the Columbia Gorge/Hood River area. Check out NWkitedotcome. I think the reason they are successful is three fold. First, they are local, really local to the spot. Second, the kitesurfing and windsurfing industry drives alot of the economy. Funny how that helps. Third, they get along with each other in the end. I think you two need alot of work on that one.

Good luck. Miami has unfortunately reached a level of complete and utter oversight at our kitebeaches. It unfortnately needs it.

Good luck with Tampa/St Pete issues also. You guys have alot more riding spots then we do in Miami. Isnt it funny, figure how much coast line in miles we have here, and its only a matter of several hundred feet permitted for kitesurfing.

[Kiteboarding Tampa Bay]

Great post Troubleshooter. I am a big fan of CGKA and although I haven't gotten to kite there yet, I have also have been a member to support their efforts. Industry does have a lot to do with their success, but it is also having good, honest people at the helm.

The reason Steve-O and I have issues is because I take access seriously and take offense to people being dishonest when it comes to discussing it. I have spent 8 or 9 years trying to build something that will truly work, starting with TBKA, and molding it into a full blown charitable org. that has all the elements necessary to not only be effective for access, but a positive force in the community. It was designed to create local chapters that are self sufficient, to let them make their own guidelines, do what they wanted in their own communities, and of course, manage their own problems on a local level. What is good for some beaches may not be good for others. The locals also know who the responsible ones are, and who isn't- it's up to them to fix it or lose their access.

For those who insist that I'm the bad guy, I encourage you to read the ASF Mission and Objectives and you will see exactly what I think is good for the sport. Simply take the generic 'sports organizations' words and replace it with 'Kiteboarding', and you will see that it's EXACTLY what this sport needs. It was crafted around the sport's problems and could be very effective in curbing them.

Our good deeds are well documented on this forum, through event permits with the county, and in the ASF event reports. We have logged thousands of hours in the community through beach cleanups, working with youth, and even adaptive sports events for the veterans. It took me 5 years to assemble that organization, and it can do everything that Steve-O is dreaming of and more. He wants no part of it because it doesn't put him in control. No Biggie, but my efforts and accomplishments are undeniable, while Steve-O has done nothing but try to tear it down and make me look like nothing but a troublemaker. Ask him about Kite4Kids sometime, where they took area kiters money and attempted to keep it (putting the entire burden on ASF)- right up until the day I called them out. As a reminder Steve-O, the kiters STILL haven't getten the race they paid for.
One thing about me is that I don't post things that aren't true- I post the truth and mix in a little ball busting- that's what makes it so effective. Strip away the ball busting, and all you have is the truth.

As an example, the business that he keeps referring me to as his lesson contractor used to have a deal with a hotel in Clearwater for SUP rentals. Being that I can never get a straight answer, I looked them up quite a while ago, and the state of Fla. says the biz has been closed due to "voulntary dissolution" over 6 months ago. It's easy to see that right here on the Sunbiz website. Furthermore, Clearwater is 20+ miles away from where we teach kiting, and insurance for SUP more than likely doesn't cover them for teaching kiting. Should I continue to take his word on it? No, they are risking everyone's access, and I want proof.

Now I have know that about DSKP for quite a while, but keep getting few the same line of BS time after time. Do you think that will stop them from risking our access? I personally don't think so, because as I said before, Steve-O and his instructors do not, and have never had any insurance to teach kiting. They advertise as PASA certified, but not listed on the PASA website here. In the real world, that is called false advertising, I just call it lying. He could shut me up real quick by simply giving up the info I requested- it's really that simple.

As you can clearly see, I am not making this stuff up. You guys can think what you want about my writing style- I may get zero points for political correctness, but at least I am honest. Our access does not depend on you liking me or high-fiving me at the beach. I am OK with that and always have been.

Have a great day.
www.kiteboardingtampabay.com

[Steve-O]

Great post Troubleshooter and couldn't agree more.

I personally don't have any interest in information beyond my backyard, but do seek advice from different areas of the state about their local spots. This is where liaisons come into play. Each liaison pulls together the needed resources to bring together information about local riding spots in their region and is also responsible for updates as needed.

For example, one of our beaches is suffering from erosion, so our old spot map needed a little update to clarify where to launch and land as the erosion forced it to be moved. We clarified the change with the rangers and everyone is on the same page. It's all about communication.

Lot's of Florida kiters travel and chase the wind. I know this for a fact. It would be nice for them to have a single location to find up to date info regarding spots around the state. The purpose of this thread is to seek that help.

Kiteboarding Tampa Bay has done a great job with ASF, Kite4Life, and TBKA. No one disputes this. Not sure why he repeatedly feels the need to bring it up all the time. Also unclear on all the attacks and how it is any where near relevant to this thread I began two days ago.

I'm simply concerned about access and any information that can inform fellow kiters about the spots they ride would certainly be helpful.

A kiter from St. Pete moved to Tampa and asked about a spot called Picnic Island. He seeked advice on a FB group and got alot of great info. Like alot. Anyways, he's not the first one to ask that question and won't be the last. I am in no position to comment on Picnic, but the locals there could put together a map/guidelines/tips and share with the world. It just seems that we keep spinning our wheels and rehashing the same info instead of writing it down. That's all I'm saying.

Finally, I am deeply concerned about an incident that occurred here in the bay area and frightened of a domino effect in might have on our untouched access here in Tampa Bay.

With that said, I have started a Facebook Group called "FLORIDA KITEBOARDING COMMUNITY". It is a rough sketch of what I think we can all do together to share information about the spots we love to ride, love to visit, and share with others. With alot of participation from the right people, it could be a great place to direct riders for the information the frequently seek. In less than one day, the group has grown to almost 200 individuals. I hope to see more on board.