FKA Kiteboarding Forums  

Go Back   FKA Kiteboarding Forums > MAIN FORUM > Lessons From The Hard Side
Connect with Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/rick.iossi
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 08-19-2008, 10:00 PM
RickI's Avatar
RickI RickI is offline
Administrator
Site Admin
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davewolfs View Post
So based on the speed that he was flying if he had simply pushed the bar out the kite would have given up? Sorry for my ignorance but I am an amateur who is looking to get into this sport, I've never used any of this equipment aside from a training kite and this video simply scares me.
Fear is a healthy perspective for something like this, has excellent survival value! Indifference which we seem to be plagued with, tends more toward grief in wx extremes.

Big point, YOU NEVER WANT TO TRY TO DEAL WITH A LOFTING ONCE YOU ARE FLYING.

The outcome is ALWAYS uncertain and biased towards the grim side of things. You want to take great pains to never escape gravity and start what may be a one way flight downwind.

That said, what you do if you're lofted and in flight? One approach is to detach from your chicken loop and drop to the ground. This may hurt and injure you. Then again, your injuries may be less than a frontal impact against a house, car, rocks, whatever. Pushing out on your bar if you are flying a flat kite will reduce the power but I think it might glide for a while. You'll burn off forward speed but will it help? Got me, goes to kite performance and accident specifics. If it were me, I would Emergency Depower well before the first gust came. If I was already in flight, I might try small control inputs to see if the kite is maneuverable and if there is something soft to glide into. If not or if I was still rising, I might just drop and free fall to an uncertain impact without the kite.

Do you see how bogus and uncertain all this is? That is why you need to take great pains never to be lofted and particularly not lofted in a spectacular fashion (i.e. 165, 800 or even 1750 ft. horizontally as have happened already).

Were I you, I would be worried about something FAR more important. That is interviewing and selection the best professional kiteboarding instructor that I can find. You DO NOT want to take this sport on solo. The odds of trashing your gear, yourself and our access are just too high. Ideas for interviewing and evaluating instructors appear at: http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=45
__________________
FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-19-2008, 10:10 PM
RickI's Avatar
RickI RickI is offline
Administrator
Site Admin
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,676
Default

Thanks everyone for your input and support, I really appreciate it! The next challenge is getting folks to get onboard with proper WX Planning And Monitoring. A huge dividend is less time wind waiting and suffering needless wind lust. You can zero in on useable winds, particularly frontal winds a lot more effectively than just going at it randomly. You also stand a much better chance of enjoying your session as opposed to regretting it in the ER and/or rehab.

Here's a start: http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=7043
__________________
FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-20-2008, 09:10 AM
OttoNP OttoNP is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 56
Default

As always, thanks again Rick. You do so much for the safety of our sport and it is well appreciated across the country. Whenever I read of these tragic events I try to ensure that my common kiting practices would have prevented them and if not, I try to add something that would have. Most of them are from reading and collecting information from sources such as Rick.

For the benefit of others and for any criticism, a list for similar circumstance is below:

1. Do not kite in typhoon conditions of when radar map looks like that.

2. If winds came up like that while riding, I would flag kite on line and self rescue out on the water. This is a pain, but in my opinion you do not want to be on land in high gusty winds...very dangerous.

3. If on land when wind comes up, depower kite as much as possible and keep it very low, keep one hand on emergency release. It seems a lot of people consider 12:00 the safest position, I'm not sure why, maybe that gets to be where you put kite when you get going too fast while riding. Wind is lower close to ground and drag is easier to hold. Put kite as low as possible with as much depower as possible. The only advantage I can think of with the kite at 12 is that it may be less likely that you would send the kite. With the kite low, if you make a mistake or for some other reason, the kite can go rapidly to 12 or through the window causing more problems (curious what others have to say about this) Also, usually one side is safer than the other, toward the water. Be prepared to release. Try to avoid this as much as possible through weather prediction and by putting kite down in water. An alternative plan in this case of the wind getting too high while ridingis prepare to flag the kite as soon as it is over land. In this case I would have leash attached to flagging line and pull chickenloop release as soon as kite is over the beach.

4. Things happened very fast in that video, it looks like he would have only had time to release during the first lofting. After he touches the sand, there is almost no time for him to react.

5. Kites are not expensive (relative to you). You need to forgot about how much you paid....easier said then done, right? You need to be more than willing to release the kite if everything goes wrong.

I'll also add these other things I do which I think help me, once again any added thoughts are helpful
:
1. Try to get muscle memory of grabbing your release

2. Try to set up mental danger lines at your spot and what you will do at each. I think this is very important, it creates clear instructions in your mind as what to do and when. Also, by deciding ahead of time when you are not in a dangerous situation your judgement will also be much better. Give youself enough space for whatever your plan is. Below is an example of a spot I frequent:

Where the water meets the coast, there are trees and rocks. About 3 kitelines lengths out there are buoys that mark an area that power boats are supposed to stay out of. I typically ride well past that. In my mind, if I lose control and can not regain it by the time I get to the buoys, my plan is to flag the kite and self rescue. This will put my kite on the water about 2 kitelines length from shore, which should be enough to self rescue without any danger of the kite getting to the rocks/trees. If I can not flag the kite immediately after passing the buoys, I will pull the safety release. If that doesn't stop my drag, I will immediately then pull leash release. I try to practice this plan mentally. From what I gather, you can easily go 1-2 kitelines lengths before you can react, with 3 I hope that is enough. If conditions are sketchy or become sketchy, I would add more space, but I also would not be out if they are sketchy.

I travel a lot to kite, partly from my job, so I always survey the spot and try to find the line I don't want to cross. On the ocean, I want to make sure I'm fully in control before the surf. If I have to put my kite down, I would want to do it about 2 kitelines length from the surf. If I get to the surf out of control, I'm pulling all my releases.

I have been lucky so far and have never had to execute the above plans, but I feel that by having them pre-programmed in my mind it will help if they are needed. A lot of kiters typically ride past the lines where I will start to try to react, which I consider an unneeded risk. I have seen them crash and dragged on the beach/rocks while I grabbed their kites to help them. Also, I'm only saying to react if you are out of control. Obviously I come through this zone when I come in and out, I'm just on high alert when I'm in that area. If I were to lose control in that area, I would also pull releases, first chickenloop and if no effect than leash.

Also, Rick has a lot of good weather related information, but a simplified checklist that I follow right before I go is below:

1. Check buoys/windspeed
-is wind steady? watch out for gusty conditions
-any recent change in speed/direction? watch out if speed or direction recently changed

2. Check wind forecast
-is wind supposed to go up/down and when? I try to find time and speed and correlate when I'm kiting. If wind is 10 knots and supposed to go up to 25-30, I know that it is only going to keep going up. conversly, if it is 20 and supposed to go to 0 knots, I know to make sure I can get back in before it dies.
-is wind following forecast? if not, something weird may be happening

3. Check air pressure
-if air pressure is rapidly changing, watch out, something is probably going to change

4. Check radar map, watch out for anything coming in...




Sorry about the length, but I hope someone finds this helpful...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-20-2008, 03:13 PM
davewolfs davewolfs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 17
Default

Sorry to keep asking, but when being pulled at that speed what is required to release yourself from the chicken loop? Realistically, is this even possible?

Looking at the video his hands appear to be on the bar at all times.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/...ctid1743101986

My prayers and thoughts go out to the friends and family of Kevin.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-20-2008, 03:18 PM
kent kent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 430
Default

I was reading the Miami paper at breakfast. I see this guy on the front page and it kind of started to burn me up a bit. I'm in this industry and see lessons being taught in the wrong spots, crazy launches, etc. I'm thinking this guy just screwed me like all the other idiots messing up. He has taken a good portion of my business away and hurt the future potential of this sportÖ

Then I read the article. Sure he was out in poor conditions and probably missed his chance to ditch. Yep, he shouldn't have been out that day. I read on, and they talked about his face book page, where he went to school, and how much he enjoyed the sport. They mentioned that he had a Golden Retriever that he loved. This humanized the situation to me. It really made me think about the person. Itís pretty sad.

Not too long ago, I responded to thread on this forum about an accident that happened around Tampa. The guy was pretty bummed that I indicated that his accident was not ďunavoidableĒ like he and others had suggested. I took a verbal lashing by the experience kiter of 2-3 years.

Nope, we donít know it all, we are all learning despite having kitesurfed for any amount of time. Technology changes as quick as the weather so donít be afraid to stand up and let people know when they are messing up. Let them know if there is a better way to do it. Like this forum, itís all about disseminating information. Share your knowledge with people that need it, and take advice from those that can give it. While many may know their equipment and how to ride it like the back of their hand, it doesnít mean that they know the weather conditions in your area or even their own. If you give some advice where itís not wanted, you may take the tongue lashing, but if they needed it; their dog (and family) will certainly appreciate your efforts.

Before riding in a difficult area or in extreme conditions, take a second before you launch to ask yourself a few questions. Ask yourself what would happen if I hook and injure a spectator? How would I feel? What will happen to their family? What happens if I hurt myself? What will my family do? Sometimes just taking a brief minute is enough to help you make the right decision.

Super sorry to hear about all 3 accidents this week. Best wishes for those that can still recover and condolences to the family of the man that can not.

Kent
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-20-2008, 09:59 PM
b-rad's Avatar
b-rad b-rad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 250
Default We were born...

What went wrong?

We were born...

I came home last night from the hospital visiting one of my buds who got bacterial menengitis from the water that almost killed him in 24hrs, attacked his brain and spinal cord...on the way home I made a 911 call at an intersection where a tahoe turned left in front of a small 2 seater...the dude was semi-unconsious laying on his airbag, searching for words...all he decided to do was drive home...

could either of them have prevented that? maybe if a dude that loves the water stayes out of it...and who doesn't drive because it's dangerous?

Kent you're right...we all have to speak up but how? How do you tell someone not to go get that awesome tropical storm session when you (we)want to? You know we all get excited when we see a storm coming our way...

So what?...25 or so people die from Fay rains...from the rain!? and we die from playing with kites?

Can you tell someone to stop smoking because it kills them...do they care? Who smokes that doesn't know it's bad for them?

Many condolences to all involved...accidents suck...

If we collectively assume responsibility for this, we are sending a mixed message just like a car commercial..."this car sure is nice but it can kill you"...

all accidents are avoidable...just don't kite...
__________________
Ride On.

Brad Lange
Seven Kiteboarding, Islamorada, Florida Keys
www.sevensports.com
305-853-KITE
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-20-2008, 10:06 PM
b-rad's Avatar
b-rad b-rad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 250
Default

After re-reading my post it seems a bit harsh...no disrespect meant to anyone...I am an optimist but how do we keep this from happening??? How do we keep drunk drivers off the roads? How do we keep adrenaline junkies safe??? I mean, the very thing that entices us kills us...
__________________
Ride On.

Brad Lange
Seven Kiteboarding, Islamorada, Florida Keys
www.sevensports.com
305-853-KITE
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-20-2008, 10:07 PM
firstcoastkite firstcoastkite is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8
Default Fay

First of all, I am sorry to hear about Kevin and I hope and pray that he makes a full recovery and lives to kite again one day. I am a professional kiteboarding instructor for 6 years now, and having suffered through one of the worst windless summers in years, this accident is like pouring salt on an old wound that has never healed. I live in St. Augustine, and have kited a total of 45 minutes this entire summer due to an active monsoon season and unfavorable weather patterns.

I am currently on vacation visiting family and searching for wind up in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and saw the video of the Ft. Lauderdale lofting on the Weather Channel on JetBlue airlines flying up to Boston. I got an email from a friend in Washington about it later, so obviously this has become national news. My thoughts are with Kent in this matter in that this event greatly effects our industry, and we should be very conscious of it.

I echo other people's concerns that there were other people out that day, and their example led Kevin to decide it was a good idea to kite in dangerous conditions. Each of us needs to think about our decisions and how it affects others in this case. We all enjoy our sport 99.9% of the time in relatively safe conditions, well within the limits of our equipment. But it is that .1% of the time that we need to think about. I for one will be stressing safety release in all upcoming kiteboarding lessons this fall, with our windy season about to start in northeast Florida. Have you ever pulled your release? If you had to in a split second, would you be able to?

Paul Menta was the one who certified me to be an instructor, and he was always adamant about PRACTICING pulling your release, and even riding with your hand on the release in sketchy conditions. You simply CANNOT WAIT until the shit hits the fan to figure out how to work your safety release mechanism. It needs to be automatic, so that you know exactly what to do, and have the muscle memory programmed in case of emergency. Know your equipment, and how to use it.

That said, the best way to avoid accidents is not to put yourself in a bad situation in the first place. One of the major things that I stress in my lessons is for people to learn how to assess the conditions, and know when to go out, and when to go home. Marcus at 3-2-1 Takeoff in the Dominican Republic showed me how important it is to teach students to be able to check the weather conditions before they go out. Yes, it has been a very windless summer, but that doesn't mean you should go pump up a kite when 50 knot squalls are moving through at 60 mph. Do yourself a HUGE favor, and check the NWS/NOAA forecast, radar images, IKitesurf meters, and any/all weather indicators you can BEFORE you decide to pump up a kite and endanger yourself. Err on the side of safety, and live to kite another day.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-20-2008, 10:15 PM
RickI's Avatar
RickI RickI is offline
Administrator
Site Admin
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,676
Default

So, it's ok for aircraft to fly through cumulonimbus clouds, the FAA is all wet requiring avoidance, for pilots to skip weather briefings, or oceanliners to steam into hurricanes instead of away from them, how about to send people into wild fire zones instead of the opposite direction to safety, why not go cross country hang gliding with no clue about intervening weather conditions, or towup hang gliding at noon in the Everglades when incredibly violent thermals cook off, or go kiteboarding when you know microburst are inbound, grounding 747's but it's ok to go kiting, or undertake a ski mountaineering without an idea for what weather is inbound or here's a good one, why not blow off weather information from all areas except the immediate vicinity? If there is a hurricane inbound, we'll worry about it when it arrives, advanced warning and precautions are for chumps. Who needs to take sensible precautions born of harsh knowledge gained from so many needless accidents.

A man has been hurt grievously and thankfully is recovering. Another man two days before was also lofted in another squall, he also hit buildings and pavement. Luck was not with him that day and the world is a poorer place for the loss of a neurosurgeon, someone's husband and father. Let's not blow off the harsh lessons for this and so many other hazardous weather related accidents and fatalities. Weather related kiteboarding accidents are FAR from random and almost always predictable and avoidable to varying degrees. I would ask that we not discount what these men went through and so many others saying, ignore this stuff and take your chances. You never know what sort of winds a squall will kick out to pretend otherwise is ill advised in the extreme. Knowing our environment and competently excelling in it should be a goal and source of pride in our sport. Not something to close our eyes to and say, I feel lucky today, do you?
__________________
FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-20-2008, 10:36 PM
b-rad's Avatar
b-rad b-rad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 250
Default

your right...and I'm with you...747's grounded but we go kite...

so who's to blame? every kite that was out on monday/tues? or just the ones who got hurt?

the best surf is when there are "no swimming, rip currents" signs posted all over the beach...the "pros" are out and Jonny surf wants to go have some fun and drowns...

This is not an argument! We feel the same! But how do we turn all this talking (9 yrs or so) into something that will save lives? Can it be done?
__________________
Ride On.

Brad Lange
Seven Kiteboarding, Islamorada, Florida Keys
www.sevensports.com
305-853-KITE
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Do not advertise outside of [COM] Forums.
Do not show disrespect for others in your postings.
Users can be denied access to this Site without warning.
FKA, Inc., itís officers and moderators are not responsible
for the content of the postings and any links or pictures posted.

Report Problems by PM to ďadministratorĒ or via email to flkitesurfer@hotmail.com

Copyright FKA, Inc. 2004, All Rights Reserved.