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  #31  
Old 08-22-2008, 08:27 AM
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ricki ricki is offline
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Hey Brad,

I apologize, I was responding to your post above this and screwed up hitting edit instead of quote right beside it. I had no intention to mess up your original post. I've tried to recover it but can't seem to do so. I feel particularly bad as your post had to have taken some time to put together. Sorry again.
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  #32  
Old 08-22-2008, 03:32 PM
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I hope no one else has been messed up in all this squall activity. Seems like it has been going on for days. Checkout some images through TS Fay:


Back on the 18th as the storm was just easing over Florida. Checkout those feeder bands, packed with squalls and moving at around 50 to 60 mph over the surface. Those are holes but how fast do they close?!


Matecumbe, August 18, 2008
This is some gusty stuff. If you were stationary as most of us are, you would feel these squalls rake over you on a regular basis. Seemed like twice an hour for a long time. Counting it looks like four times per hour or more in some cases. Even if you don't get blow into something hard, the gust lull cycles are a lot of work. Anyone up for rigging for 5 to 52 mph winds, uh what size should you setup? Kites like fairly steady winds, we make up the difference through handling and exertion for winds that are not.



The next day, how much time do you think they had between getting bashed by squalls in those feeder bands in the Keys. The entire state gets treated to this sort of thing as the system sides north. Any of those red splotches could toast you with a 60 mph or even higher burst. The thing about wind stations is they're stationary and read local winds. Weather moves and effects large areas. You can have far more extreme or mild wind not too far away from the stations.



Hobe Sound, August 19, 2008
Yeah baby, where do I sign up to enjoy 3 to 45 mph winds with high speed direction changes? Count the number of spikes per hour and imagine having a nice kite up through all that. You can see it just yo yo'ed all day just like that.



Days later and further north. The eye is getting pretty large. It's a hole right? How long does it stay over you and how free is it from squalls? Hard to say.



Getting up around Cocoa later in the week, still hammering through, tons of spike and lulls, for days!

Tropical systems can be a trip, just make sure it isn't to the ER. There are few real surprises with these systems as far as generating local crappy conditions. It is more a matter of how bad and how long. Bottom line, tropical systems can locally make for bad kiting weather, lots of work and a good chance of getting slammed. Out of the area of the center, there are feeder bands, sometimes hundreds of miles long or even larger. No end of embedded storms in many of these convection bands. I was almost taken out by a storm that was centered 150 miles north and on the other coast of Florida. My feeder band was about 400 miles long so a 150 mile spacing amounts to nothing. That is if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. AVOID Squalls.
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Last edited by ricki; 08-22-2008 at 04:02 PM.
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  #33  
Old 08-22-2008, 03:34 PM
KiteworldUSA KiteworldUSA is offline
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So, it's ok for aircraft to fly through cumulonimbus clouds, the FAA is all wet requiring avoidance, for pilots to skip weather briefings, or oceanliners to steam into hurricanes instead of away from them, how about to send people into wild fire zones instead of the opposite direction to safety, why not go cross country hang gliding with no clue about intervening weather conditions, or towup hang gliding at noon in the Everglades when incredibly violent thermals cook off, or go kiteboarding when you know microburst are inbound, grounding 747's but it's ok to go kiting, or undertake a ski mountaineering without an idea for what weather is inbound or here's a good one, why not blow off weather information from all areas except the immediate vicinity? If there is a hurricane inbound, we'll worry about it when it arrives, advanced warning and precautions are for chumps. Who needs to take sensible precautions born of harsh knowledge gained from so many needless accidents.

A man has been hurt grievously and thankfully is recovering. Another man two days before was also lofted in another squall, he also hit buildings and pavement. Luck was not with him that day and the world is a poorer place for the loss of a neurosurgeon, someone's husband and father. Let's not blow off the harsh lessons for this and so many other hazardous weather related accidents and fatalities. Weather related kiteboarding accidents are FAR from random and almost always predictable and avoidable to varying degrees. I would ask that we not discount what these men went through and so many others saying, ignore this stuff and take your chances. You never know what sort of winds a squall will kick out to pretend otherwise is ill advised in the extreme. Knowing our environment and competently excelling in it should be a goal and source of pride in our sport. Not something to close our eyes to and say, I feel lucky today, do you?
Man, I've been battling the press since this happened! Seems the overall vibe from the media is that he shouldn't have been out there.....all except for FOX News which all but condemned the sport itself!!! Sometimes we get lucky and are able to keep these stories out of the main media thanks to insiders most of the time, but this one was being broadcast in hawaii at the end of the day. We are all pulling for Kevin's speedy recovery but just remember in big conditions comes big attention. Next time I want to see a positive piece on this to counter the negative.

Fly safe,

Brian
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  #34  
Old 08-22-2008, 04:57 PM
davewolfs davewolfs is offline
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As important as weather conditions are, In reading this I'm finding that people continually blame this accident on the weather. The harsh reality is that yes this accident could have been avoided if proper precautions were taken, but even experienced riders sometimes have complications. You cannot bank solely on being safe based on your weather conditions, especially since it is something that is completely out of our control.

Great efforts have been made on the equipment front in order to improve safety of the sport and I'm sure there is still room for improvement.

For those who are experienced, if you were faced with question "Is there room for improvement with respect to making your gear safer, i.e. a better release system" do you really feel that all riders would say that the current system in place is perfect.

Self awareness of your surroundings is extremely important and in my opinion something that all trainers should spend a great deal of time in emphasizing. I also feel that people need to start thinking a little bit deeper from an equipment stand point on areas that can be improved upon i.e. guaranteeing your release when in a position where you have been immobilized - something like this could potentially prevent injuries while adding value to the sport.
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  #35  
Old 08-22-2008, 08:37 PM
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Good point Dave, accidents are almost always the result of a series of choices and related events. In this case however, the most overwhelming factors exceeding all others included the state of the weather and where the rider was located, how and when he responded to those changes.

The weather issue cannot be emphasized enough as I sense a good percentage of kiteboarders out there don't see all that much wrong with exposing themselves to squalls. There has been too many accidents and losses involving guys going out in violent weather to support such a practice. Consider the global attention and potential negative sentiment bonded to our sport in public perception from this one accident. Whether kiteboarders want to go out in unsafe conditions or not, public perception and perhaps policy will be influenced by how things go.

Folks looking to consider some of the factors involved in having a good session, with lower chance of incidents, accidents and threats to access might read over the following draft document. It is in revision to try to encompass all the changes brought on by flat kites vs. traditional C kites. Still, there is a lot of relevant content there. Some of those other issues you were referring to might be found there as well Dave.

http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=2781

These guidelines were derived from the evaluation of hundreds of incidents, accidents and losses and have been revised numerous times over many years. They seem detailed but in reality this is just a portion of what is good to know. As I said, it is still being updated and is provided for informational purposes only.

You can examine quite a few other cases which have been pulled together along with some general articles with the goal of reducing accident/incident repetition and building the safety of the sport at:

http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=29
and
http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=12

All kiters need to know almost without thought how to Emergency Depower whatever kite they happen to be using at the time. They also need to be familiar with what it takes to release their kite entirely in a true crisis when Emergency Depowering fails to work. New kite? Then you need to work on this early. Quite a few guys have been in incidents involving new and not real familiar gear.

For years we used to say not rely upon quick releases in a crisis as they might not work as intended. Today, releases may be more reliable but our reactions may not have changed all that much. Often we have only seconds to act but fail to do so for a variety of reasons. The goal needs to be to avoid the emergency/crisis in the first place. Have your kite well secured and on the beach before there is any change in wind speed, direction or temperature related to the squall. If conditions are too stormy (as in a good portion of TS Fay), the holes too small or honestly exceeding your current experience and skill, blow off the session, live to kite another day.
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Last edited by ricki; 08-22-2008 at 09:26 PM.
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  #36  
Old 08-23-2008, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickI View Post
Hey Brad,

I apologize, I was responding to your post above this and screwed up hitting edit instead of quote right beside it. I had no intention to mess up your original post. I've tried to recover it but can't seem to do so. I feel particularly bad as your post had to have taken some time to put together. Sorry again.

Thats ok Rick, I'm sure it was a mistake...



I've read the above articles before...and suggested others do the same.

Obviously I think weather prediction and squall avoidance is cruital to a kiter's survival...to imply otherwise is absurd and a little offensive seeing that I have dedicated almost a decade to teaching people safety.

I'm trying to get deeper (and it's been difficult - probably due the limitations of a forum discussion) and discuss how we can help people, educate people, warn people when the traditional stuff doesn't work...because I don't think we're doing enough.

It might be time to start another thread...
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  #37  
Old 08-23-2008, 10:35 AM
noel noel is offline
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Brad,

I found this post of yours and was wondering what kiteing fatallity you are talking about.

Well, hopefully August will go down as an important month in kiting as there were some pretty bad accidents and a fatality in the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale area during tropical storm Fay. Although there was some ridable wind from the storm, there were definately some "DO NOT RIDE" conditions throuout the state that all kiters, regardless of experience, should avoid.

As a new kiter, you MUST know when to go and more importantly when to NOT go out. There is a ton of information on this forum about weather prediction and safe kiting. Take advantage of it and take a certified lessons!

We will be offerring all kinds of lesson packages, camps and cliniques this year that range from FREE to inexpensive. Take advantage, get connected, and learn how to rip for the long haul.
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Your own quote is "Although there was some ridable wind from the storm, there were definately some "DO NOT RIDE" conditions throuout the state that all kiters, regardless of experience, should avoid." but I know that your instructors rode in winds gusting over 50 mph during the same storm. I thought we were trying to show by example. Guess not.
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  #38  
Old 08-24-2008, 12:06 AM
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Did you actually read this thread or did you just jump in to try to make your competition look bad?


Quote from noel on kiteforum:

noel Post subject: Re: More Dipshits in FloridaPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:40 am
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You know, I do find it quite funny when people ride in high winds or hurricanes such as Dimitri in Hatteras or Flash in 50 knots, no one says a thing. I have kited in winds close to 50 and had fun. Of course it wasn't 20 gusting to 55. That would be pretty crazy. If you go to Maui, it's the norm to ride in 35 +. I guess we are all dipshit and kooks.






"I have kited in winds close to 50 and had fun." - yeah, that part particularly popped out to me after you attacked our instructors for doing the same thing... so are you for or against high wind kiting???

Dude you need to back off...I am over it...and do not even think of coming to Whale Harbor ever again if you keep starting crap like this with me. Mike and Shana told me they are tired of you starting crap on the forums...it makes the Otherside look bad and it does nothing good for kiting in the Keys. It has been nice and quiet around here since you have been gone...think we can keep it that way this season?
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Last edited by b-rad; 08-24-2008 at 01:12 AM.
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  #39  
Old 08-24-2008, 08:07 AM
noel noel is offline
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Not trying to start anything. But what we need to do is start by setting a good example. AGREED?! What if one of your guys got hurt or worse? The guys I talked to thought it was a terrible idea. By listening to you, I hear you think the same. No? I have kited in high winds and there is nothing wrong with it. But hurricane winds are very inconsistent and as you know from experience, you have little to no control of the situation during it.

This is not a bash. You always take it that way no matter what. All I'm saying is we need to practice what we preach.
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  #40  
Old 08-24-2008, 08:11 AM
noel noel is offline
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I also ask again about the fatality you heard of. Did anyone else hear this?

I do find it crazy that in Florida during the hurricane a few surfers died and also a few swimmers but does anyone think that they will be closing the beaches to swimming and surfing. NOT!!
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