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  #1  
Old 03-15-2007, 03:47 AM
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Purple Hayes Purple Hayes is offline
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Question Rigging and Control 4line LEI

I have a question regarding control of 4-line LEI kites.

I'm just getting started and per the advice that I keep seeing from the overwhelming majority, I'm trying to go as slowly and smartly as possible.

I'm living in southern Kuwait (not much help down here) and have spent the past three months learning to master a 2.4m Flexfoil traction kite. Before I progress to the next level, I'm trying to get as much info as possible.

I haven't been able to find much info on the internet that covers the complete rigging (from the bar, all the way to the kite attach points) of a 4-line LEI. From what I've seen, it looks to me like the control (outside) lines on the LEI are attached to the trailing edge (opposite of my current kite). I want to know if what I think I'm seeing is correct. If that is the case, what method of control is this (braking, increased lift)? I'm trying to get it straight in my head because it doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks in advance!

Patrick
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  #2  
Old 03-15-2007, 05:27 AM
Skyway Scott
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Patrick,

Sounds like you are using a quad line traction kite with handles. I used those for use with a buggy. (Flexi.... yeah baby!!)

If you have mastered that kite, then you have a real good understanding of how a kite works.
You do have it right, in terms of the setup on a kite-board kite, with a bar. (it is backwards from your traction kite in terms of leading/trailing... steering/power control)

The biggest difference is that we use a bar and a loop attached to the center lines. The center line with loop runs through the middle of the bar and allows us to sheet in and sheet out (power up and spill power) when that center loop is "anchored" to our harness.
This is different than changing the angle of attack "manually" with each handle by leveraging the handle to increase back line tension for breaking. So, when "hooked in" to this center line loop, when we push the bar away from us, toward the kite, we increase lift and when we pull it towards us (in your mind now with your kite) we "break". The thing is, the kite is so much more powerful that the analogy doesn't stick. It's like trying to "break" a tarpon by tightening drag when you sheet in on a big kite. (It aint happnin')

So, on our kites, when you push the bar away toward the kite, it steals/kills power by spilling wind (increasing lift) and when you pull the bar toward you, it increases power in the kite (up to a point). We can't do this to just one side of the kite independently to increase turning speed like you can with handles on your quad, it's both sides at once for us when we sheet in and out.

You may possibly understand (more than others without quad line experience) that there is a limit to how much you can power up a kite changing the angle of attack, before the "breaks" literally get put on and the kite stalls. Not many of our kites can stall like this, but some can.
So, if you really understand your kite now, it will help you in the long run with our kites.
Especially the idea of efficiency and not "over powering" it to the point of having breaks on.

I think RealKiteboarding has a pretty good instructional video out. I know it was good, I just can't remember the detail they went into with rigging.
Someone may remember the other internet vid that showed how to rig a kite (it met with some controversy).
Let's see what the other guys think about it.

Teaching yourself can be done, if in a no-choice, isolated situation. Sounds like this is your situation.
Getting good information to work with is obviously critical and you know this.

The main difference you will experience is the tremendous power of a LEI, in 15 plus knots. That 2.4 is a great learning kite, but the power difference is nigh and day.
It's fairly overwhelming the first time you experience it.

Good luck.

Last edited by Skyway Scott; 03-15-2007 at 06:05 AM.
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  #3  
Old 03-15-2007, 01:56 PM
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Purple Hayes Purple Hayes is offline
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Thanks,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyway Scott View Post
Patrick,

Sounds like you are using a quad line traction kite with handles. I used those for use with a buggy.
Yup, that's it.

Quote:
(Flexi.... yeah baby!!)
Yeah, it's pretty fun to fly. At first I was just looking at buying a small kite merely as a means to an end and wasn't really excited about it. Now that I've pretty well mastered it I'm having a lot of fun.

Quote:
Teaching yourself can be done, if in a no-choice, isolated situation. Sounds like this is your situation.
Getting good information to work with is obviously critical and you know this.

The main difference you will experience is the tremendous power of a LEI, in 15 plus knots. That 2.4 is a great learning kite, but the power difference is nigh and day.
It's fairly overwhelming the first time you experience it.

Good luck.
Well, I figure I have a pretty good foundation. I was a skater (board) until I was in my late 20's (had to quit after falling started to really hurt (sucks gettin' old)). I've been surfing for 23 years (including four on the North Shore) and I’ve done some wakeboarding and skiing. I'm a pilot and a certified aircraft mechanic (so I figured that I have the aerodynamic understanding pretty well covered as well).
But....I'm trying to approach this from a very humble perspective. I’m planning on buying a 5-7m LEI next. My thinking is that; I can use it to train with and ,down the road, I’ll have something for the real heavy days.

Thanks again for the info and the detailed response. It really helps!

Patrick
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Old 03-15-2007, 07:25 PM
Skyway Scott
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Sounds to me like you are a perfect kiting candidate.
Get that RealKiteboarding cd and go for it. It is obvious your attitude and approach are great.

You are in the middle of nowhere (kiting wise), so...you can't exactly get other kiters banned!! I say go for it man! Let us know how it goes, Patrick.

What wind speed do you encounter most often?
Is it hard to get stuff out there (tax wise)?


Good luck.
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  #5  
Old 03-16-2007, 02:39 AM
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Purple Hayes Purple Hayes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyway Scott View Post

.....You are in the middle of nowhere (kiting wise), so...you can't exactly get other kiters banned!! I say go for it man! Let us know how it goes, Patrick.
"Kiting wise", and all together, really! I'll definitely keep you up to date. It seems like I've heard about kiter "black-balling" more than a few times now. I'm guessing that's a big issue back in the States' and, I would imagine, the rest of the civilized world.?. What's the biggest problem?

Quote:
What wind speed do you encounter most often?
That's the nice part about being a pilot. I have the best seat in the house to check out conditions. The other benefit is that you always have your finger on the pulse of the most current weather. I have access to the lastest, greatest weather equipment and information.
In the past I spent a lot of time looking out the window as we were making our final approach into certain destinations, looking for good surf spots.
These days, I'm looking for wind strength and direction and nice open areas to go kiting.
The trend that I've noticed here, is that, consistently, every afternoon during the warm season (...about Mar-Oct ) you can count on a 10-15kt onshore breeze. The combination of the desert heat and cooler Persian Gulf water means that there is a consistent seabreeze effect most of the year.

During the heart of the summer we also have sand storms once or twice a week (15-30kts+). The idea of going out during a sandstorm probably sounds a little whack'd but the dust here is about the consistency of talcum powder. People go about their daily routine during the sand storms, like any other day. You do have to get used to, on occasion, that feeling of grit in your mouth during the real bad days. I'm actually looking forward to getting to the level where I can go out during one!

Quote:
Is it hard to get stuff out there (tax wise)?
...not exactly sure I understand... Do you mean import tax? If so, no.

Taxes aren't a problem. (There aren't any.) There's actually a little bit of a cash glut here (Did you really think you were paying $3/gal because the fuel was actually becoming more expensive to produce? ). So, at this point, their cash cow is making enough so that they're not getting creative with taxes.......yet.

That's one of the only "up's" to this gig (makes for a great paycheck). The way that I usually purchase big items is via EBay (EBay’s taking over the world!). Then I have my wife FedEx it to me (and FedEx is helping them). The only downside to this process is the fact that; the idea of a mail system and street addresses hasn't quite caught on here in the ME. It can be a real cr@p-shoot. (usually 60-70% odds for success)

While on the subject of wind strength and cr@pshoots; at 185#, what's the smallest kite I can realistically use (with regard to the previously mentioned LEI that I'm considering)?

Patrick
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  #6  
Old 03-16-2007, 04:58 AM
Skyway Scott
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I know your area and Bush and buds are making a killing, it’s not rocket science.

I meant import tax, cool….

I would stick with those 10 to 15 knot days for at least 6 months, if not forever, if you guys basically have nothing in between that and BIG wind.
The step up to big wind is very dangerous, alone.
Get a buddy out there hooked, that’s the best bet of all to being safe out there. Ride together.

The launching becomes more hairy and everything else does too in 25 plus knots. The riding can be safe with practice, but it’s the getting the kite up and down that is real sketchy. The power of the wind at 25 is pretty unreal, mistakes are punished much more quickly and with much more authority. Basically, it’s exponentially more dangerous and things go wrong ten times more quickly in 25 compared to 15. 30 is really serious wind.

For the 10 to 15, which is great learning stuff and just plain fun, anyway, I would get a new 17m Waroo or a used 16m waroo and I would get a large board. Something like the crazy fly 145 by 44. Don’t get anything smaller than the 152 UG. Trust me on that one. Width is more important than length (plane-able surface). I think you should stick with the light winds and have a friggin’ blast in the safer stuff until you hook a buddy up.

http://oceanextremesports.com/catalo...roducts_id=378

or Underground 152
http://www.watersportswest.com/shopc...ng&user3=board

At 185, in 10 to 15, you need a bigger kite. You could make a 15m Waroo work, but as long as you have the discipline to not go out when it's a sand storm, I would get the 17m.

Those boards I mentioned won't do so hot in the bigger winds either. You are going to be limited to 20 knots and under, and I really think you should promise yourself to stay in less than 20.
The gear I mentioned will be a blast in 15 knots, not schlogging barely having fun, but a blast. The gear I mentioned will start to become unmanageable at 20 knots. That's good, imo. Built in safety mechanism forcing you off of the water.

Extreme kites will more than likely ship to you. They have shipped to Qatar, Kuwait, you name it. I remember shipping to some places I had never heard of before.
Watersports West might as well, I am not sure. Call and ask both places.

Ebay is reasonable. Ikitesurf.com has more selection.

The kite shipping fee won’t be that bad, but the board fee will be bad (possibly not even “legal” by USPS size standards).
But, maybe a pilot buddy can fly it in for you?

To your smallest kite question and using it down the road. I am against going out in the heavy stuff alone and want to make that clear. But, a 7m Waroo is the answer.
It would be a good kite to get the feel of LEI kites with, before just hopping on a big 17m kite.

In 12 knots, with reasonable kite control (I think you have it), you aren't gonna get whacked too bad, even on the 17. Don't get me wrong, treat it with respect, you can get hurt! But in 20.... dude... it'd be close to suicide to put that 17 up on your virgin flight.

Oh, quick release on your kite and kite leash. Dream about them at night. They are your friends.

If you decide to do business with Extreme kites, tell them Scott sent you.
I don't get anything from it, just a warm feeling knowing Rob and Daryl's faces would turn sour.
(they have had some bad situations come out of Qatar and places where you think ---- "sand")

To cover my own butt here. I have a made a judgement call on giving you advice. It is based on you seeking info and you appear to have a good attitude, approach etc. Not giving info would be dumb.
You don't have access to lessons. AND, you can't get other kiters banned, so ..... this could be fun hearing of your exploits.
Buy some good instructional vids, a wind meter, and shoot for days where it is blowing 13 to 15 knots and get ready to have a blast, Patrick.

If you were here, I would be leaning on lessons and cold shouldering you if you didn't.
But, you aren't.

Black balling etc. Nah... we help each other out, by recommending lessons and keeping it safe.

You are about to experience the most excitement possible in sports. I am jealous.
It's the learning that was the EXTREME fun in this sport. I still love to kite and do all the time. Nothing is better. But, the first 2 years are by far, the best. Let us know what happens. I know I am interested. You will get a lot of advice on here, hopefully from others too, in the future.

Bleighty and Invisible and Toby and all others on here are great.
The instructors can't just hop on and give info for liability reasons. I can. Patrick, I really want to hear these stories. Keep us posted.



Last edited by Skyway Scott; 03-16-2007 at 06:17 AM.
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  #7  
Old 03-16-2007, 09:55 AM
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Purple Hayes Purple Hayes is offline
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Actually, it sounds like you and I are on the same page. When I surfed the North Shore, I had a buddy that liked to go out on the biggest days possible. I went out on a few times and it felt, to me, like being towed behind a ski-boat at 60mph (just skipping across the face of the wave).

I was assuming kite size and wind speed were inversely proportional (stronger wind+smaller kite=same speed). I suppose that idea probably stands true to some degree but I think I see your point. Just like with surfing; I'd rather be out carving on a small to medium day than getting flung across the water, out of control, on a big day.

As far as a buddy, as luck would have it, I just found out that one of my new copilots decided he wants to try it also. He just picked up a 16m kite. He can't remember the manufacturer (we're on the road right now), and he's Danish, so he'd have a tough time explaining it anyway. jk

I appreciate your vote of confidence. I have three young children, trust me, my days of going out blindly into the abyss are over (they were fun while they lasted).

My buddy has a Boost II DVD, so I'm going to check that out. He's also taking a very safe approach. He told me that he's watched the video twenty times already and plans to watch it "a hundred more." Also, I found a pretty good site with free downloads of instructional tips and tricks.

http://kitefilm.com/eng/weeklytrick.asp

Thanks again for the help. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Old 03-16-2007, 10:42 AM
Skyway Scott
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Cool. You should share his kite for awhile.
You are "clear for take-off". Keep us in touch.
Maybe a photo of you next to a camel or sumtin.
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  #9  
Old 03-16-2007, 03:30 PM
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ricki ricki is offline
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I think that there may actually be shops in Kuwait and still others in some of the Gulf States. If you google "Kuwait kiteboard" you'll see some prospects.

If you can do a weekend trip to a good facility over there from some quality instruction I think you will move well along the learning curve. If not, your progress may be slower and risks greater but nothing new there. Not all instruction is the same in terms of quality. You would do well to ask them some questions, some ideas appear at:

http://www.fksa.org/showthread.php?t=656

Next, I would recommend spending some time looking over the guidelines that appear at the link below. Virtually all of these guidelines have been derived from past accident analysis. Just as it can hard (impossible) to summarize safe flight procedures on an index card for powered aircraft, the same might be said about kiteboarding. Details.

http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=29

While your at it, look over some of the case studies. It is always good to try to learn from the mistakes of others rather than volunteering for first person experience. There are still more case studies in other parts of the site.

You might do well to hook up with a "flat" kite around 12 m. If you are targeting winds that are 10 to 15 mph you may want to go a bit larger. For appropriate winds you should find your learning progress will be faster. You don't want to go out overpowered particularly while you are learning.
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Last edited by ricki; 03-16-2007 at 11:09 PM.
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  #10  
Old 03-16-2007, 07:24 PM
Skyway Scott
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Keep us posted Patrick.

Rick offered great advice. I think in 10 to 15 you will be walking back a bit on a 12, but probably better safe than sorry. Don't go out in sandstorms.

Last edited by Skyway Scott; 03-16-2007 at 08:02 PM.
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